Sloppy Civ bonuses need to stop

[NarrowBubbles54]

Frank need it, and it is not copy. It not same the way different work. I think it is ok.

[KHANATTILA]

@yuksely1992

Just scrap this civ or replace their berry and HP bonuses with something else.

If the collection rate were lower than that of the Franks, it wouldn’t even be a problem

@yuksely1992

Armenians having a better Champion than Vikings isn’t okay either.

I think most people, myself included, have complained about the awful design of the Armenians. Although that isn’t a problem in itself. There is room for a 100HP Champion.

@JasuniSmith

Franks do need the berry bonus. The hp bonus might be about equal to the extra attack bonus (and also comparable to Jurchen scouts), but Magyars still have their scout discount as well and a better late game as well (FU hussars, arbs, and CAs is a potent combo). And Frank scouts will lose to generic scouts once they get bloodlines (something Magyars have access to). And as much as Magyars love their scout rush, they can also do a MAA rush (with free forging still applying) or an archer rush (generic, but any preemptive spears will be utterly wasted). The main advantage Franks have over Magyars is that Franks aren’t pushed towards aggressive gameplay because Franks actually have eco bonuses - but the farm bonus by itself isn’t enough (and doesn’t help with the initial scout rush either - it kicks in afterwards). Even with the berry bonus, Franks have been getting power crept. Take it away, and Franks will need something to compensate (like usable arbs - something they had historically but completely lack in-game)

I couldn’t agree more

@Skadidesu

The settlement is barely a bonus at all.

It’s a bonus, let’s not kid ourselves. Just like the Japanese discount.

[yuksely1992]

Franks not only need this berry bonus.

They also need a buff.

Only +6.7% more HP for Paladins as a military bonus is just ridiculously tame compared to what other civs get.

Not denying the power creep, but it’s also the issue of Ensemble not compensating the Franks properly after the introduction of Bloodlines, Halberdiers, Hussars, and Thumb Ring.

[TheTowerDefender]

@Skadidesu

The settlement is barely a bonus at all. It costs 125 Wood which is a disadvantage if you only need a Lumber Camp that is a disadvantage. In most situations it’s a slight advantage but almost never as much as the Japanese bonus that makes all camps cost 50 Wood.

the settlement costs +25 wood, but also gives you a house. so it evens out. however the larger surface area of settlements means it’s an automatic gather boost for lumber camps etc, because there are simply more trees that are within a 3 tile radius. This means that you can wait longer until you refresh lumbr camps, and that the vils gather more efficiently.

[TommoChocolate]

@Skadidesu

It costs 125 Wood which is a disadvantage if you only need a Lumber Camp that is a disadvantage.

At worst, it’s as good as a standard drop site plus a house, and costs the same. In the early stages of the game where 25 wood might make a meaningful difference, you will always benefit from the 5 population space as well (unless you have over-invested in houses already). I don’t see any realistic situation where it’s a disadvantage, personally.

[DynasticPlanet5]

Worst come to worst if you can only get one node type from your settlement… you can still build farms around it afterwards

[KHANATTILA]

@yuksely1992

Only +6.7% more HP for Paladins as a military bonus is just ridiculously tame compared to what other civs get.

That’s the classic misunderstanding of not grasping how the Franks’ gameplay works, though. You’re not the only one; it’s quite a common mistake. They’re a civilisation that power-through to Paladins, trying to break through. If they succeed, great; if not, game over. Which is why, over the years, the bonus for berries has been reduced, and Chivalry was first made more expensive and then moved to the Imperial Age. Having Paladins with even more HP wouldn’t change a thing.

@yuksely1992

They also need a buff.

Simply restoring Chivalry to how it used to be would be a buff in itself. And given that the Bearded Axe is poorly designed, it should be integrated directly into the UU, with something else taking its place

[Apocalypso4826]

@KHANATTILA

Simply restoring Chivalry to how it used to be would be a buff in itself.

You think we should get 40% faster-created cavalry in Castle Age??? That’s crazy.

@KHANATTILA

And given that the Bearded Axe is poorly designed, it should be integrated directly into the UU, with something else taking its place

Agreed. Not sure what though. Maybe the Castle discount could be moved to a unique tech, but then that would overlap with the Slavs.

[KHANATTILA]

@Apocalypso4826

You think we should get 40% faster-created cavalry in Castle Age??? That’s crazy.

11 (a bit)

@Apocalypso4826

Agreed. Not sure what though. Maybe the Castle discount could be moved to a unique tech, but then that would overlap with the Slavs.

I’d like to suggest something about the infantry, but I’m not quite sure what

[benithisrael]

@yuksely1992

And what is going to happen if your civ isn’t liked? How will you compensate for the precious time these professionals used to put your civ in the game?

If he is civ crafting and needs help with other aspects, you can wish him luck and move on. You don’t need to critique him so much. @DynasticPlanet5 designs are rather well put together. However, making mods is a bigger task in itself which if it becomes popular will be taken/stolen into the game as a core mechanic for a new civ for no compensation. So there is no incentive for others to work on someone else’s design.

@Skadidesu

@Zelley00

• Mapuche have a 2nd economic bonus, which is the settlement.
• The problem with the Mapuche berry bonus is not that it is there, but that is strictly superior to the Frank bonus, not only argubly superior.

1. The settlement is barely a bonus at all. It costs 125 Wood which is a disadvantage if you only need a Lumber Camp that is a disadvantage. In most situations it’s a slight advantage but almost never as much as the Japanese bonus that makes all camps cost 50 Wood.
2. There is no written rule that one civ is not allowed to have 1 bonus that is better then 1 bonus of another civ.

@zelly00 is right. Unwritten rules exist, if you can’t read between the lines and understand them. You will make shit designs that play like carbon copies of existing civs. You will end up powercreeping existing civs to sell your new civs. The game becomes pay to win and ultimately nobody will pay to play.

@yuksely1992

Not denying the power creep, but it’s also the issue of Ensemble not compensating the Franks properly after the introduction of Bloodlines, Halberdiers, Hussars, and Thumb Ring.

Franks are fine if you don’t steal their bonuses and powercreep them.

[GermanAttorney8]

@Skadidesu

The settlement is barely a bonus at all.

Just reading, but the biggest advantage is that sometimes you can get both wood and (berry or gold or whatever) in one settlement (which = 100W saved)

Also dont agree that bigger numbers / overlapping are bad, Imo civ bonuses are meant to be viewed as a whole with tech tree.

Have to agree that powercreeping is getting worse, why we are not focusing on that?

[FurtherLime7936]

@KHANATTILA

Simply restoring Chivalry to how it used to be would be a buff in itself. And given that the Bearded Axe is poorly designed, it should be integrated directly into the UU, with something else taking its place

Reason why Chivalry was moved to Imperial Age and made more expensive was because Franks were getting this 40% workrate boost early enough to get into Paladin wayy too fast, and that made Franks too strong in TGs, no way to revert this back.

[GermanAttorney8]

Yea agreed and imo without that purpose (super fast paladin) does not really make sense to click that UT in castle age in lots of situations as well, which made the UT kinda weird

[Skadidesu]

@yuksely1992

Only +6.7% more HP for Paladins as a military bonus is just ridiculously tame compared to what other civs get.

There are only 5 civilisations that have fully upgraded Paladins and only 2 of them have a bonus for them (Cumans have slightly more speed), all other Paladins are missing technologies.

Teutones and Lithuanians miss a technology but have a civ bonus that makes up for it.

Having a fully upgraded Paladin alone is a huge civ bonus because Paladins are by far the strongest generic unit. So having a bonus on top of fully upgraded Paladins is really strong. There is a reason why Franks were the strongest civ on AoE2 for a very long time. The only other civ that was strong for a similarly long time is the Huns, and surprise, they also have fully upgraded Paladins.

@benithisrael

Unwritten rules exist, if you can’t read between the lines and understand them. You will make shit designs that play like carbon copies of existing civs. You will end up powercreeping existing civs to sell your new civs. The game becomes pay to win and ultimately nobody will pay to play.

Unwritten rules are super subjective. My list of unwritten rules is different then your list and also different then the developers list.

Having 1 bonus that is better then 1 bonus from another civilisation is not automatically power creep.

Mapuche don’t have Scouts nor Knights so they definitively play a lot different then Franks. All their units that have strong bonuses also miss important technologies. Like they are one of the few civilisations without Squires.

[KHANATTILA]

@FurtherLime7936

Reason why Chivalry was moved to Imperial Age and made more expensive was because Franks were getting this 40% workrate boost early enough to get into Paladin wayy too fast, and that made Franks too strong in TGs, no way to revert this back.

That’s true, but you can revert to the old price from when it was in the previous age. It’s not exactly at the top of my list of ways to improve the Franks; that spot is reserved for something better than Bearded Axe.

[yuksely1992]

Why would I pick Franks when there are civs like the Spanish if I just want Paladins?

The Spanish have a better Skirm, Scout line, Blacksmith, gunpowder, Monk, and Navy. 6.7% more Paladin HP is just nothing compared to those values.

[IHeliosI5379]

@yuksely1992

Why would I pick Franks when there are civs like the Spanish if I just want Paladins?

Didn’t you kind of answer your own question there? If you just want Paladins what does a better skirm, scout, monk, navy, blacksmith, and gunpowder units have anything to do with it? You said, you just want paladins. Spanish have arguably a weaker economic start than Franks, since they have no Dark Age bonus.

If you want me to guess you also mean getting units during the aging up part to Imperial, those skirmishers are only better in Imperial when Bracer and ring archer armor come into play, but by then you’d start researching into paladins anyway.

[Skadidesu]

Franks are still the 2nd most popular civilisation in ranked so I don’t think that there is anything wrong with them. In below 1000 ELO they are even the most popular.

I think the simple and straight forward gameplan is something a lot of people like.

[Zelley00]

@Skadidesu

The settlement is barely a bonus at all. It costs 125 Wood which is a disadvantage if you only need a Lumber Camp that is a disadvantage. In most situations it’s a slight advantage but almost never as much as the Japanese bonus

It is still a clear dark age bonus on all common settings compared to a civ with no dark age help. You save:

• 20s of building time (40s vs 35s+25s), which is around 8w.
• The walking time to build a house and come back
• Some lumberjack walking time from having more trees closer
• The walking time of lumberjacks who become farmers, as they do not need to move to a mill/TC.
• 100w if you can build it to cover 2 resources.

Huns house bonus was also seen as a disadvantage on Nomad maps until the horse was added.

@Skadidesu

There is no written rule that one civ is not allowed to have 1 bonus that is better then 1 bonus of another civ.

Yes, it is not a written rule, but it had been followed by the devs and every fanmade civs until now. Many complain about a bonus being strictly better than the others.

There are other implicit rules that the devs did not break:

• 3 to 7 civ bonuses per civs. They could have given a civ 1 big bonus (eg. every unit and tech costs -7.5%), or 20 minor ones (skirms cost -5w, cavaliers deal +1 damage, …)
• No bonus has decreasing value over the ages/upgrades. They could have given something like non-ageup-techs costs -60%/40%/20%/0%

An implicit rule can be broken, sure, but there is no reason to break it. The way the last 30 civs were designed makes it quite clear that the devs are aware of these rules. Mapuche could have an additional bonus instead and everybody would be happy.

@Skadidesu

Never claimed that they are superior. Just said that there is already a bonus overlap.

Nobody besides see a problem with bonus overlap. It was always there, since AOK. And many enjoy the fact that bonuded are overlapping without being strictly superior.

@yuksely1992

Franks not only need this berry bonus.

They also need a buff.

I do not think Franks need a buff. They are very popular and have good ladder winrates. They are rather weak in 1v1 pro tournaments indeed, but we do not all civs to be viable in competitive 1v1 Arabia.

For me the most important thing is that no civ is too strong in any ladder or tournament setting. Better having a civ unplayable in one setting (ex. pro tournaments) than overpowered in another (ex. 1200 Elo). And it is better if popular civs are more on the weaker side rather than the stronger side.

[Skadidesu]

@Zelley00

Yes, it is not a written rule, but it had been followed by the devs and every fanmade civs until now. Many complain about a bonus being strictly better than the others.

I don’t think of it as that much of an issue. Bonuses always need to be seen in context. If the Berry and Farm bonus was written as 1 bonus for the Franks instead of 2 then everyone would accept that it’s a different bonus but it just happens to be in 2 lines.

Also the Franks bonus used to be +25% but that was too strong.

When I first saw the bonus I thought “wait isn’t that just a better version of the Franks bonus” but then I realised that it doesn’t matter because civs are more then just a bonus.

I even think that 2 civs could have exactly the same bonus if their techree is different enough to make it practically a different bonus.