Im trying mongols in ranked and this seems so… weird… i mean did mongols never build a single wall?? why is this? can some expert in mongol history explain? did they not know wood or what? they have plenty or much stone for no walls?? in games with such aggressive playstyle where you cant close your eyes to sudden rushes for even one second its so frustrating not being able to defend anything… Or am I missing something here? not even a special wooden fortress… something??? please help… Im trying to improve my game here… thx
No I don’t know why the wall was built in the Ming dynasty and not the Qing. furthermore I have no idea what that has to do with why Mongols cant build walls in a video game.
but yo OP my best defense to Mongol raids are counter raids so while it might seem unfair to you that you can’t defend your base. however it would seem way more unfair to me if i go to attack you have to siege a wall get inside only to realize you MOVED EVERYTHING out the back while i have no vision meanwhile your army has been wreaking havoc on my eco which is forced to be stationary unlike yours… if you feel you need walls as the Mongols. no offense but you’re probably playing Mongols wrong and should try a civ that fits the way you play better
It would feel much better if the maps weren’t bloody puny - then we might see and advantage to movable buildings. As is theres no point.
Actually alot of things would feel better if we just had maps of variable sizes in 1v1s like in startcraft 2 - a big part of civ balance there is how the size of the map soft counter either rushing or turtling. Closed maps just arent the same - no space to make sophisticated army maneuvers.
Mongols have been one of the best civs from the beginning. Still the best on some maps.
Theres no point in every civ having the same strat. Next you will want keeps
some matches when they dont rush me I have a chance, Im just trying civs for fun and the mangudai rush has really helped me sometimes, thing is I am used to defending you are right and the lack of walls makes me feel like… dang they are gonna burn my base down any second! hahaha
The issue is that the Mongols are a plains and early rush civ, besides that since they have their mobile bases, it is kind of unnecessary for them to build walls…the same happens with the Lakotas in AoE 3 who don’t have walls until 4th age…
Nomadic people have generally never had use of walls.
Because it becomes a lot of effort and resources for something they really do not need, and by the time they are done with wall’s, it is already time to move to greener pastures, quite literally.
Also defensively, it dosn’t make much sense as nomadic families tend to live several miles apart from each other, due to pastoral nature of their livestock.
If they were to build walls, they would need to build walls so great that even the great wall of china wouldn’t be so great.
And speaking of the great wall of China, it is a perfect example on how humongous of a wall one needs to make in order to “wall” out nomadic neighbours.
So economically, it dosn’t make sense.
And Nomad’s don’t really need the wall, because if they are targetted, they are most likely already gone and moved somewhere else before an army arrives to bring it down. Which is the sole reason why mighty empires such as Chinese and Central asian empires had such a hard time fighting back, as whenever they sent out an army to annihilate the Nomad’s, there were no settlement or anything to destroy as it was already gone and elusive.
And due to nature of armies that arrives from walled cities, is they are limited on supplies and and thus limited on how far away and area their campaigns can last.
Which is why Nomad’s worst enemies werent the grand armies of a Agricultural civilization. But other Nomads who share the same mobility, and able to catch up and scout out potential routes of rival nomadic clans. And most importalty, keep up with the other nomad’s as they live off the land and does not need to rely on huge supply logistics to keep up with them when chasing another nomadic clan.
And playing Mongol’s in this game gives you a hard lesson on importance of map controll, towers and scouts.
If you can’t afford towers, make sure you set up scouts in strategic position (usually stealth forests overlooking a pass).
You Vision, is your wall. If you see a enemie army on the minimap moving towards your base, you should have ample enough time to respond and turn around to deal with them.
Alternativly, move your base to a safer location if you find yourself at the very front line of it all especially in team battles.
And if you ever take a look at pro games, you will notice how, regardless what civ they play, pro players will rarely build walls, especially if they are on the offensive. And the walls they do build when on the defensive are usually pallisade walls, rarely stone walls.
Making sure they have as much map vision as possible is something they do instead of walls.
Completely wrong statement!
When the Mongols built their capital city Karakorum, they used Chinese and Middle-Eastern engineers, and architects to build Walls and Towers.
Many foreigners do not understand how the Mongols settled and sent armies to fight around the World.
The Capital city is based on settled culture.
Only the army and the herders were based on Nomadic culture, as they must be constantly moving, advancing, changing position, etc.
This is a picture of the (Chinggis Khan - Museum), where the Historians are depicting and restructuring the ancient capital city of Karakorum based on the archeological foundations and evidence.
They did have stone walls and palisades.
The Mongols were always concerned about their security, especially in foreign territories, and Silk Roads.
It always needed walls to keep illegal goods checked and improved taxation.
Otherwise, traders would not pay taxes and get rich easily in the Mongol Empire.
Security in foreign-governed towns etc were all walled.
So saying Stonewalls are not useful economically is a completely false statement.
1st you need to read the history
2nd if you don’t know history, you need to be away from this discussion as you are spreading misinformation.
wow, may be they had also chairs? forks?
or do you think they dump enough to even build a wall?
just google “mongols youtube” - there are still people who live in steppes without walls.
It does not mean they do not have cities or whatever walls. You need bazar to trade, you need a place to settle. Imagine an foreign trade come to the palace but it moved 500km away.
It’s about identity. And they still use yurts for living. a small part of people still lives like they did for generations. Just google. LOL.
open google maps and find some trees in mongolia to begin with.
another capital example?
Those arent governors…
They are herders, they must seek better pastures or their sheeps etc will die…
OMG, how could you be so…
Bazaar was created by Ilkhanate (Another Mongol Empire).
They did have Markets that are in walled or outside the city…
Mongol identity is not completely Nomadic culture.
It is based on both Settled and Pastoral Nomadic cultures.
Where do you think I live?
in a steppe? No!
I am of those settled ones.
There are pastoral nomads who have different IDs and ways of life.
The herders don’t pay taxes…
Khuvsgul etc has too many trees, the capital Ulaanbaatar, etc.
The Northern part of Mongolia is full of trees.
Even in the Gobi desert, there are specific trees (Saxaul tree), whose roots go down 30-70m or sometimes more than 100 meters.
This is why the walls in the Mongol Empire (especially in the desert used to build stone walls)
Capital cities such as Xanadu, Dadu, Khanbaliq (build in Chinese territories)
All conquered cities by the Mongols around the world…
(Those who surrendered without a fight were all in-tact with walls and towers etc.
You really need to read history before discussing this…
Which is why I said the word; Generally.
Meaning it’s not the norm that a your avarage Nomadic clan build walls.
Yes they had grand temples, palaces and settlements working as tradehubs. However these settlements, while under Mongol rule, were generally Agricultural, and usually had large quantities of settlers of, say, China,
Khwarazmian Empire, Rus and Buddhist monks from Tibet, and so forth who resettled under Mongol dominion and would usually prefer settling in these more permanent locations, and as any more Permanent settlement, it’s only natural to fortify them.
Great Mongol emperors also didn’t have an issue adapting into more Agrarian life-style, as we clearly see with Kublai and his fondness of more Urbanised way of life.
But for your avarage Mongol Nomad, these things were no different than any other settlement, other than they were under Mongol rule, and they could be visited for trade, pilgrimage or even, retirment in some cases.
But many still, lived out in the big open plains, free from any walls. As they simply didn’t need them.
I am not saying Mongol’s never figured out how to stack rocks or woodem beams togheter to make walls.
But if we are playing on that sense, we do see that Mongol TC have a form of wooden and fabric wall surrounding it, even a great wooden gate.
And Steppe Redoubt clearly depicts a more earthen wall on its structure.
So in a sense, Mongols do have walls represented in their architecture in the game.
My biggest problem when it comes to the Mongol defensive game, isn’t the fact they can’t build walls.
But that they can’t build keeps or any form of fortification other than outposts which are rather squishy.
Nor are any Keeps capturable, So in a long haul game, the other civs have an advantage as they can go “beyond” pop cap with keeps. While we can certainly spam bombard towers, it’s still no match again spam of keeps which have burning oil.
Do Mongols need something akin to keeps?
I personally don’t think so.
However I do think they in return should be able to Capture keeps and use opponents defenses against them. (I personally think all civs should be able to capture keeps, mongols having ovoo upgrade that allows them to capture them even faster)
Because they are Herders.
They must seek better land to feed their cattle etc.
It is called pastoral nomadic culture.
But the governing body is in the capital city to operate day-to-day operations.
Walls improved taxation, security, and integrity.
But it is just a visual thing, not an actual buildable wall.
So I would not count it.
What museum is that? That’s awesome
They can’t make walls, but they have virtues in aggression, they can move buildings and they can make 5 million towers with cannon emplacements in imperial.
“Chinggis Khan Museum” in Mongolia
I thought with Mongols you were supposed to rush
Sorry guys , got hacked
But those walls of Karakorum never saw any action afaik.
Do you know the sack of Kharakorum?
It did happen when the Ming Dynasty got strong and sent more than 100k unit army to Kharakorum.
The Northern Yuan (Mongols) retreated and very few were left to die in Kharakorum. Those walls were broken down and the city was burned. that is why there is only the foundations are left. And that is how the historians are depicting it in the museum.
Again read history…