Some ideas about how to improve JDA, ZXL & OOTD

Glad to hear that Devs are consider to modify those old variant civs.
This is indeed meaningful work that should be notice in the meanwhile of publish new DLC. I will provide some ideas to improving old variant’s design.


JDA’s problem had existed for a long time.
This civ’s design bind its overall military power with Heroine’s status. We will find that JDA always behave extremly aggressive in early game, as it can only rely on battle to gain exp to complete its military strength.
If you gotta fight with JDA, you have to tried your best to avoided to fell in battle with your opponent, until you got overwhelming counter forces such as a large group of crossbowmen then quickly struke back to end the game. This way of match is do boring.

In addition, the design of JDA is too similar with French. Perhaps we can try some more inventive ideas.

For these problems, I got 5 ideas:

1.Remove the relation between Heroine’s exp and Consecrate. The Available Frequency of Consecrate should not be affected whatever Heroine engage battle or not, and whatever which level Heroine are. As we known, Consecrate is so significant, if it can only bind with early battle, that’s means you are forcing player to fight earlier, this is harmful to the diversity of tactical choices.

2.Reduce the Penalty if JDA was not in the frontline or dying. I know the current design of JDA means Devs try to encouraged Heroine to participate in frontline battles, but we should avoid extremes. Like we can let Hero can gain exp in any position, but only half or even less if she isn’t close to battlefield.

3.We can try give Heroine exp when Booming econmy, like when training Villagers, Traders and Fishboats, or building another TC. In this way we can give JDA’s player some new tactic choice like booming but not fast attack.

4.Give JDA with JDA’s Champion and Rider in Feudal, and Remove the Early Royal Knight. Then give Heroine with ability of Healing Area like English King, her healing speed can be faster like Hospitaller but only working on JDA’s Champion and Rider.

5.Adjust JDA’s Champion and Rider to sort of universal unit. Champion can cause more damage to every light infantry. And Rider can cause more damage to heavy unit like Ghazi.

I believe this may lead JDA more unique but not some sort of Advanced French.


About ZXL, I believe this civ still well in current version, Pro Scout make this civ more aggressive in Feudal and Castle, but we should also notice that this civ’s Unit Tree is incomplete in late game.

As we known, ZXL got no Handcannoner which I have no intention to changing. But how can ZXL deal with large gruop of Cavalry in Imperial? Yeah, ZXL got good Crossbow, but the 10000 Bolts can only be get in Library Landmark, and Crossbow also can’t deal Horsemen for they are not heavy units.

Or can we rely on Spearman? No, Spearman is too cheap, its low price means that it can only passively resist and consume the resources of its opponents.

Actually ZXL’s IO design tended to actively gain tactical advantages by rapidly consuming resources to build massive Specialized Troops. But lacking of efficient anti-cavalry unit and Handcannoner in same time always makes this civ embarrassed in early Imperial.

So maybe we can make use of a neglected weapon, Fire Lance.
Why Fire Lance can’t turn to Fire Spear? Just like AOE2 just do.

Yeah, I know there is a Roar of Dragoon tech, however restricted by the low price of Spearmen, this upgrade actually very useless in game because you can’t let Spearmen too stronge otherwise they will be Spamed. How many players have you seen choose this tech in game?

So the best method is make a new Advanced Spearman by using Fire Spear, which is available after Imperial or research Roar of Dragoon. Name it like Fire Spear Soldier or whatever you like.

1.This unit may use the model of Castle Palace Guard just like English Wynguard Footman do, they can hold Fire Spear when idle but not only when charging, or you can give them with the animation of Heavy Spearman like Templars’, in these way they can be very identifiable.

2.It should consume Gold, to prevent being Spamed, to make it can only be used as anti-cavalry forces.

3.Don’t give them heavy armor, for heavy spearmen were do annoying. Maybe you can give them MAA’s HP.

4.They shouldn’t have faster speed, for you can’t let them keep up with Palace Guards to make ZXL’s harassment very triesome.

5.Their weapon’s firecracker can be triggered when Charging or Crouching, to make additional damage to Cavalry. Don’t give them too much basic damage.

ZXL should be a civ that tend to build Specialized Unit to gain initiative, Fire Spear Soldier can effectively supplement its Unit Tree’s deformity after Imperial.


In fact, I also wanna try to improve OOTD.

This civ is very good at harassment and frontal assault, but due to its size of troop, it always struggles to protect a large number of siege weapons. But I really don’t have any good ideas to solve its problems without changing its original characteristics.

Maybe we can creat some new siege for it?

Or maybe we can try give OOTD with Black Rider as experiment?

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Meh, at this point if not interested in DLC civs/FOTM prolly best to quit/take a break.

We’ve been at this now for a few years and nothings changed. In a couple months it will be something else like maybe they give some weird buff to ottoman that makes everyone play them or decide trade should be worth more so everyone plays abassid.

They cant figure it out unfortunately

Ottoman are facing another kind of problem, its unit tree is still OK, but tactical choices are too simply.
I’m tired to accumulate military school one by one, this civ might need the possibility to employ other kind of tactics.
Like let school can help Booming economy, some new siege in Castle, or turn Janissary to normal early Handcannoner like Lancaster.

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Another buFf My CiV ItS weAk type of thread …

zhu xi is fine it doesnt need any changes its supposed to be feudal castle age aggro civ and fall off later to be opposite of boomy late game china also it doesnt even fall of in imperial that hard no you dont need some new broken ass spearman they got strong crossbow and nest of bees , Zhu xi was literally S tier civ before dlc and probably still are very good but lancesters may just counter them

Devs already said they might work on JD rework to make her more interesting and stand out from french we will see

OOtd is noob stomper civ doing great at lower ranks having highest win rate it will never be good for pro players and on high level cuz then it will be completly broken on lower ranks. Its super simple civ and it doesnt take much to play it properly the lack of complexity makes it that way but thats how it was designed to be it was supposed to be that easy civ that doesnt require micro for noobs .It also doesnt need many changes it has its uses on some hybrid maps for high level ,

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You know what, it isn’t so simple like that, mate.
I prefer these civs got its own healthy system than its better win rate in match.

A good design should behave balance at most of situations, there’s nothing to do with whether it is OP or not. Just nerf it if it become weird, but the whole design of civ should be improved at first.

If ZGN are overwhelming Knight by their number, just nerf the supervise of IO.
If JDA can crush spearmen by Knights without arthers, we should also adjust its design.

Sometimes we should prioritize civ’s design issue rather than simply buff or nerf it.

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Okay, let’s see what we have here:

    1. Consecration penalty gone: Good, The idea of ​​removing the penalization of consecration cooldown if Joan falls in combat seems fine to me, at least for balance.
    1. Royal knight in feudal Ban: No, removing the Royal Knights in Feudal is a terrible idea; you’ve already removed “the only bonus” worth having, given that it’s a French variant.
    1. Joan 3rd route Ecco Bomming: Interesting, BUT I’m not sure Joanna ever administered any cities. Her nature was highly military; she was a general, so I don’t think that aspect should be neglected just for the sake of balance. So, its a no.
    1. Special Joan units in feudal: No, at a narrative perspective It doesn’t make sense to add Joan Riders and Joan Champions before LV3, since Joan hasn’t “yet” gained notoriety. At least for the sake of suspension of disbelief, some units should be unlocked with some narrative logic.

In any case, I don’t think these are the reasons why people dislike Jeanne, but rather it’s generally due to the status she shares with her parent civ:

  • Jeanne shares 6 landmarks, 5 unique units, and almost everything with the French (80% of the same).
  • Jeanne’s passive bonuses differ from the French only slightly (consecrate, castle bonus).
  • The French don’t have a single Unique Unit that’s different from Jeanne’s.
  • Jeanne don´t have a build where she uses their iconic Flag, a passive route to eco boom, or something similar.
  • JoanDArc mounted handcannoneer lady in LV4.

Comparing to other variants:

  • Zhu Xi does differ in Landmarks, unique technologies, and units from China, although this generally also makes people want China to have more unique units, but not to change ZhuXi.

  • OotD is enough Protoss Civ to be liked by Starcraft2 players by its Micro and to be differentiated from Holy Roman Empire, whic is a Macro Civ. Also the new addition of Black Riders, make a great advance to differ beetween parent and civ variant.

I think Joan need another changes for a Remake, and not only buffs and nerfs, wich can be applied, but for balance solutions and not for “core problems” with the civ.

It is very glad to see some other different ideas about JDA, as long as they can change JDA’s current embarrassed situation.

Keeping the early Royal Knight is still fine, but I do prefer those ideas can make this civ become more different from French. Changing Landmarks or creat new unit will be great but I don’t know whether Devs have enough time to finish these work.
I’m just trying to provide them with what I think is the simplest solution.

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