Something about Camels

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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Hey guys,

a few days ago I was watching Hera’s new Arabia tier list video and I noticed that Camel civs are on average placed way higher on the list than Civs without access to Camels.

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I don’t think Camels are op and of course a lot of civs are not so high up the list because of their Camels but I couldn’t stop asking myself, if this was just a surprising coincidence or if Camels are a more solid and versatile unit than most people might think. Hera talked a lot about the new Cav Archer meta and Camels are definitely not the worst option against them, so that could be a big argument for them.

I think the only “problematic” Camels are the Saracens Camels in Castle Age. 145 HP with no need for a UT is a bit too much and should be reduced in my opinion.
Furthermore I would take the Heavy Camel upgrade away from the Chinese and give Castle Age Camels to Romans.

But what do you think about the current state of Camels? Are they secretly more important than people give them credit for?

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First, I agree that +25% HP as bonus for Camels + Bloodlines is simply too much, people was complaining on how broken Gurjara Camels were in castle age with 50% more bonus damage or Hindustani ones with 25% faster attack speed, now that those are nerfed, Saracen Camels are winning against them everytime till Gurjara get Frontier Guards or Hindustani get Imperial Camel, and Saracens have the best tech tree of the Camel civs to complement, is just absurd (Imagine if Franks or Burgundians also had Bloodlines on top of their bonuses…)

Logical step is to make the bonus +15% HP in castle age, 25% HP in Imperial.

Second, removing Heavy Camel from Chinese won’t change anything, Cuman players still go Camels in castle age vs knights despite not being able to turn them into Heavy Camels, so what stop Chinese to do that? Chinese still have Halbs with cheaper upgrades vs Cavalry and Halb+Arbalest army is cheaper to get into.

Third, Romans def don’t need Camels as they already have armored castle age pikes with +4/+4 armor.

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This is what happens when you only give certain civs a hard counter to Cavalry in a game where you could rename Castle Age as Mangonel Age… Gotta counter the Mangonels with fast units somehow…

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There is some historical reference for Bulgars to have camels. I read an article where Bulgarians of the Volga variant had them.

I dont think access would push them up the tier list to top

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Maybe cavalry become more prevalent in current meta and so camel civs can have advantage? Not camel is too OP but knight is prevalent.

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In the end, camels have no PA and a low attack. The baseline camel in age 3 actually loses 1v1 to knights in age 3 despite the bonus damage - its the minor res diff that lets them pull ahead. Consider that the average camel with blood lines takes 24 crossbow shots (even upgrades) for 115 res, where the average light cavalry takes 27 for 80, you get the idea. Even Saracen camels take only 29 shots…yea camels are not the problem. Forget crossbows, you might eve be able to use skirmishers against them.

What I will say is that camel civs, esp. african kingdoms and onward tend to have better synergizing unit comps. Also Hera oftens says that the dark age bonus is the major player in 1v1 on open maps. Taking those two, lets look at the list and see if there’s something more than camels.

Chinese - extra vil and popsapce early on. Hera did say thats a bigger deal at higher elos.
Mongols - +40% faster hunts. Thats a dark age bonus alright.
Hundustanis - a literal perfect comp; Imp camel for cavalry, gunpowder techs for infantry, gulam to cover the mutual weakness to archers. And you have cheaper vils to get that off the ground faster.
Byzantines: Dont know this civ, only play it in team games.
Persians: Faster vill making go brrrr. Then into a near perfect knight rush.
Gurjaras: Extra forage bushes at the start and THE most perfect unit comp; strongest camel that can kill any cavalry, best anti projectile unit in the shrivamsha to cover the camels vs archers. Chakrams to mow down spear units that try to hold the other 2 back.
Malians: Its really the wood savings and extra gold facillitting the meta archer rush. Then its the farimaba hussars.
Saracens: Ironically, its the market swung knight rush. In team games, its the mameluke, and other wise its the cav archer/ hussar ball.
Tartars: More sheep, fatter sheep, free ride into archers and cavalry archers.
Berbers: Cheap cav → better scout rush, better knight rush, etc.
Ethipians: 200 res into whatever you please, and a very strong archer strat from go.
Turks: Veeery good scout rush. Leads nicley into a strong CA/huss comp.

So, where are the camels a critial point? Nah, its all about gassing through age 1 asap, then its all about archers, CA, huss… No sir, no camels, not here.

And about the camels vs CA - yes, its true. Technically, CA’s can be countered on res terms by xbows or skirms, but that runs into the old issue of a slow unit vs a fast unit AND there are always huss around to be arrow sponges. So, camels come in, being able to wipe out the whole comp, since its all on 4 legs. A bit tricky to counter micro the CA, but get a surround and you’re golden.

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