I open this post so everybody can make suggestion aimed to increase the power of Spain in teamgames because even though they now have a slightly better dragon the situation havent change to much and they are still very weak in teamgames. Also I know that they are other threads about this but they either die fast before anyone notice or the subject degenerate in other subjects that dont have relevace to the balance issue, so please try to use the thread for it purpose.
To begin with the topic I would like to repeat one suggestion that I made some time ago and that I think it would be the best aproach to buffing spain in teamgames without affecting 1vs1, that would be changing the effect of the card Tercio Tactics. Tercio Tactics is a card that right now nobody uses because its literally useless and due to their target units could be reworked to easily become a card that buff rodeleros and pikemen in some way that they become a viable unit in late game, and because how Spain plays in 1vs1 and that this card is a age 4 card it wouldnt affect too much the meta in 1vs1 while it would make a huge impact in teamgames. As for the effect it could be some kind of buff to speed or to damage multipliers or something that allows the unit to reach the enemy before they get snipe by range units.
What do you guys think it would be a good balance change for the civ in teamgames?
PD.:Sorry for my horrible english, itsnt my main language
Es dificil mejorar a España para hacerla funcionar en equipo sin mejorarla en los 1vs1, El problema diria que es las cartas en equipo que posee son muy malas, falta mas innovacion en su baraja de equipo puesto que todo es muy basico y ademas no se utiliza, Yo propondria que eliminen las carta en equipo actual (menos la que aumenta un 15% el daño de la infateria cuerpo a cuerpo) para hacer nuevas que si valgan la pena, Tomando en cuenta que España tiene prejuicios de codiciosos en oro podrian hacer goteo de oro o envios de oro en equipo, tambien que pueda enviar rodeleros o misioneros en equipo, Y otros envios no necesariamente en equipo que sean utiles en cuarta edad, los jugadores buenos con españa solo se ponen las fabrillas y los cañones en cuarta edad xD
That requires you to kill your eco so it isnt a good move outside of treaty, if at least they let you mantain your settlers with those revolution it could be viable
Yes but you need time to rebuild your eco after a revolution and if you do a FI to go for a revolution so you dont lose as many settler you are not going to be able to send factories before revolting
You are in a team- not playing alone - so if you send medicine and have 4 TC’s you can quickly get 99 vils and also revolt, send citizens - push and if fails recover all again.
Nevertheless you can play normally until mid fortress, while setting up the 4 TCs and then boom to revolt and pummel.
If you are spain you probably have lots of hussars already so revolting can get you that extra humpf you need. Death guard hussars or Granaderos are so good they cut most armies like butter.
Remember that with spanish gold and 2 factories popping citizens will be a piece of cake.
Also most revolts have eco cards to aid you in getting the resources needed for their main unit (ex. Cows and Granaderos)
The problem is getting to Industrial. And even if you do get to Industrial, you still have to revolt. A good team will see your deck and push you early. Defending a team push with one less player is really hard unless you’re on a map that offers natural choke points.
I agree with Hanstermen and Renektonsion89. Spain doesn’t have much to offer in a team setting. That could be different if they change or buff some of their team cards. For example, their Team Hand Infantry Attack card is barely used because Hand Infantry isn’t very common in team games. Maybe buff it or change it so it includes other units besides Hand Infantry. Maybe change it to “Team Infantry Hand Attack” so it buffs all infantry hand attacks including musks, skirms, and shock infantry.
Here are some changes that in my opinion could help in team games:
The Conquistador card could also increase War Dog train limit from 5 to 10. This might help in early team aggression. Apart from this, I would buff all European explorer cards so they can be more useful in combat like the native explorers.
(Only if they buff all explorer combat cards) Buff Team Explorer Combat card to increase explorer viability in combat which could combine nicely with other explorer combat cards. Maybe it could also reduce the cost to revive your explorer.
Change Tercio Tactics and Spanish Square to make Rodeleros and Pikemen more viable in the late-game and move these cards to Industrial Age. Possibly give them a health upgrade or give pikes a ranged melee attack. The Devs could get creative with these.
Change the Missionary’s population cost to 0 like the Warrior Priests. Change Unction so it also affects your teammate’s units. Maybe 1.5% per missionary adding to a total of 15% with all of them out on the field.
Change Corselet (Spain’s unique Church upgrade) speed penalty to 10% from 15% so you can offset it with the Advanced Arsenal speed upgrade. The Dutch do a similar thing where they offset Coffee Trade’s speed penalty with the same upgrade. I would do the same thing with Britain’s Thin Red Line upgrade.
Team Archaic Infantry Training could also give a 10% attack and health upgrade to justify putting it in your deck.
Lastly maybe you could give the Team Inquisition card +5 LOS for a total of 15 LOS. But I’m not sure about this one.
Edit: I would also change the following…
Maybe give Spain the 8 Villager card in Age 3 to help their eco in team games. I don’t think this would affect 1v1 games since Spain is more of an aggro civ but in team games, you pretty much need everything you can get.
Reduce Logistician Politician cost to 800 from 900. This would make Spain more flexible in team games.
I dont agree with this point (Albeit i do like some of your changes). To revolt you only need a few key cards on the deck such as Riding School, cav combat spanish gold, the factories cards.
Industrial is easy with spain because of the Spanish gold card (and Medicine since this is a team game). You can make falcs+lancers and still hold nicely in the mid game. The problem is really the late game, when your opponents card upgrades are kicking in, and your units become weaker. And mass lancer dies to mass goon…
The problem i see with spain is that it is predictable, since going other unit other than cav can be a mistake. And in mass goons mid/late game, they really dont have that many options… But its playable. Not as good as other mid/late game civs, but playable.
After a few skirmishes i would advise to just boom to revolt, especially if the opponent is massing goons - Granaderos >> Goons
The problem is that your strategy works well if you do a fast revolt but the earlier you revolt the more cards of upgrades (both military and eco) you are not going to be sending, meaning that even if you revolt early, you are going to become weaker as the game progress because of the upgrades the enemy team will be sending and the absence of upgrades from you
Don’t get me wrong, I agree that FI and Revolutions hit like a hammer but it takes ~11 min to do a naked FI and it takes about ~15 min to revolt with both factories and maybe a couple of extra cards. By that time, they could’ve rushed you in age 2 or in age 3 and it’s hard to defend. In my opinion, in order for it to work, you would have to be facing against a team that likes to boom and catch them by surprise and hit them hard. But what I’m getting at is that it’s not always viable.
I think Spain’s unique units are strong but tricky to use since they’re melee units and that means that if you take an unfavorable engagement you’ll lose a lot of them and you won’t have the best eco to back it up.
I think team cards are the way to go to avoid messing w/ 1v1 balance, and I think spain’s only problem is their low-tier team game eco.
So maybe add Team Spanish Gold? 200 gold for each player on the team for every shipment the spanish player sends.
This one is probably a bit off-the-mark but Team Unction would also be funny. As in, all healer-type units boost attack (probably with a lower percentage for non-missionary healers).
These suggestions would be pretty fun to play with if implemented, and they would certainly make spain better in team games.
The thing is that you would transform spain in a kind of suport civ with that changes. I think we should look more at how to increase their strenght in late game via upgrade cards that will allow Spain economy and army to keep up with the enemies ones. With this Im not saying that we should overlook other approachs like the team cards, but due the nature of 1vs1 play stile I think it would be the most practial approach without breaking the nation identity
I don’t see any issue with that. If anything, this would strengthen Spain’s identity by making them good via the use of tools that other civs don’t have.