I’m not sure if this is a good idea. Spearman was very effective against knights before the Imperial Age. If we over Buff Spearman, then the Cavaliers will retreat, and the mainstream of the battlefield will become the main force of MAA and crossbowmen, which may affect the rhythm and fluency of the game, and may even affect the viewing of e-sports games.
Even in the Imperial Age when Spearman can no longer function, knights are no longer the mainstream of the army, but Springald and Cannon, but I suspect that those players who want Buff Spearman are because they cannot resist the attacks of the knights in the Feudal Age and the Castle Age. Want Buff Spearman. If this assumption is true, then Buff Spearman will not get the results that players want, but will get the results they didn’t want.
Spearman was very effective against knights before the Imperial Age.
No, it wasn’t, unless you referring to closed beta or something. Spearmen never were effective enough vs knights. Currently they are only used because you have no other options and only at age 2, after which you never even consider making spears. Fully maxed out spears are instagibbed and not used by anyone even if literally everyone spams knights postimp.
Multiple mistakes done by the spearuser.
No quick brace so cav gets the chargebonus of and the additional dmg buff, running after cav beeing pulled back instead of instantly clicking S for retargetting.
Additionally 1 knight costs about as much as 3 spears so hera in the initial engagement had twice, after tbe initial 4v3 engagement even thrice as many ressources in units on the field, picking up single units 1by1 instead of having to fight a bigger spearmass at once.
If you really think that this clip proofs that spears are way too weak you are increadibly biased.
Hera clearly was microing way more activly while his oponent took an outnumbered (2-3 times the ressources for hera on the field) fight which was totally unnecessary, throwing his spears away 1 by 1 instead of covering up his ressourcespots and getting higher unitnumbers.
This clip proofs absolutely nothing except that hera microed more actively in the fight.
Making all the mistakes you want but still win a fight, even tho heavily outnumbered with missmicro and missengagement would be so increadibly stupid.
Imagine making the same comparison on 20 crossbows vs 50 men at arms and complain that crossbows are meant to counter heavy units so they should clearly win in a vacuum under any circumstance, even if cought offguard and missmicroed.
If you really think that this clip proofs that spears are way too weak you are increadibly biased.
I’ll repeat myself. Spears are not doing the only thing they are supposed to do: scare off the cavalry from engaging them. ‘Not microing enough’ is a very weak defense, spears are the counter to cav and neither of units are ranged. Here’s another situation which is even more showcasing it. Viper has a large group of spears, fights in a choke point, uses brace and kills what… 3 knights? Did he not also not micro enough now? https://youtu.be/jzLdZ2h6M-w?t=2884
And please, stop addressing the cost effectiveness, cost effectiveness is not a thing when dealing with unit counters, it’s not a balance factor. Cost effectiveness is adequate when you measure two unrelated units against each other like maa and knights, but when you measure the direct counters you can’t argue that if they are cost effective they are good. Spears are useless at fighting anything but cav while cav is strong against everything. By making spears are you basically betting on the fact they will be fighting cav and even then you will not be able to get ahead on the field because you will only trade somewhat equally, which is not what a counter unit is for.
This is a very bad example.Spearman, who has fewer people than Knight, certainly can’t fight Knight, not to mention that Spearman went up in order and didn’t concentrate.
What scene do you want to see? Spearman kills a Knight with two attacks? Or can Spearman be commanded to attack and he can defeat all the Knights without operating him at all? Spearman’s biggest role is to defend an area or a unit, forcing Knight to attack will pay a great price. He is not used to “destroy” the knight, but to become a shield. Spearman is an infantryman, and Knight is a cavalryman. You expect Spearman to kill the knight in one battle, but the knight doesn’t even have a chance to escape? Don’t forget the cost of their training, Spearman is totally worth it, and has done what they should do.
It is normal that no one uses Spearman in the late game. Spearman has always been a cheap and slow-moving passive defense force, but to destroy the enemy can only attack, and the role of the knight as the offensive force is far better than the use of infantry. of.
It is equally strange to say that the equal number of Spearman cannot defeat the Knight, just as the equal number of anti-tank guns cannot defeat the tank.
Pretty much, yes. Given spearmen completely terrible performance across the board, they should be able to kill a knight in a few attacks. Especially so because knights have an option not to engage spears at all.
You are basically saying that it’s a good gameplay design for knights to be the ultimate unstoppable force because that’s what they do. I don’t think you know what you are talking about.
He outnumbered in units when you think about the costs of the army and faces of the better composition (knights+archers are so much better to fight and take engagements with than spears + archers).
Additionally to that, the archermicro against the spears was really great.
They targetfired 2 different spearunits at once.
Let me tackle this from the other way around:
What would you’ve expected to happen instead in the 4-5 seconds of fight that the vipergame clip shows?
At least half of the knights would die with only few remaining to chase archers to archers would be fighting each other. Again, it’s not about army costs. When you ram your knights into spears, knights should not completely dominate them, because they are supposed to be a direct counter, especially so with using bracing move. Archers also can’t take all spears out in 4-5 seconds either.
The meta is already to spam spears/maa and archers with springalds… Not sure they need a big buff, horseman are already the worst generic unit in the game, don’t need to make them worse.
I disagree, you don’t make spears, only maa and archers once you hit castle. Spears don’t even get a spot in queue because you’d rather make another maa. Also horsemen are better than you think, in postimp they are a perfect support for siege wars: they are less vulnerable to springs and mangos, they are very fast and can be sacrificed into enemy’s siege and they can raid economy. For the note, spears can do none of that. Also horsemen only need a lot of food, and as siege takes all your gold and wood, horsemen is the way to deal with excessive food.
Horseman are the least built unit in the game, they cost 120 resources, and are only passably good vs archers and terrible vs anything else. One of the big reasons spears are relatively less used is because everyone builds tons of archers, meaning you just need meatshield in front of your archers/springalds, which is always goingto be your own spears/maa. If horseman was a good unit you would see way more spears, but horseman are so garbage you don’t need a cav counter and xbows are better against knights.
Horseman are bad in every era, the only era they are kind of passable is feudal before masses get to big. Their low damage to non-ranged units combined with no armor and abysmal attack speed means they aren’t even good raiding units (they take forever to kill vills and melt diving keeps and towers), not to mention they are twice as expensive as just massing spears to facetank if you really need trash.
Cost effectiveness is indeed important when taking into unit counters. No unit no matter how good a counter should win 1v1 against a unit that costs 3 times as much, so if we want spears to be able to fight knights 1v1, they would need to cost like double or they would obsolete any cav into an unviable units. That said they are going to get an anticav buff next patch.
You don’t know what you are talking about. Maxed out horsemen take out vills nearly as good as knights while being cheaper and faster. Spears are only viable until there’s a single mango on the field. Again, horsemen can suicide into enemy siege (the strongest unit type late in the game), spears can’t.
Cost effectiveness is indeed important when taking into unit counters. No unit no matter how good a counter should win 1v1 against a unit that costs 3 times as much
Again, this is not how it works. 1 Spearman can kill bombard 1v1 even though bombard costs 12 times as much. Does that mean spears are way too strong because they can do it? No, because it’s not bombard’s use to fight spear close range 1v1. What other use spears have than fighting cav? None, they are bad vs archers, siege and maa. They either must compensate for it by being able to take 1.5-1.7 to 1 knight, or be buffed across the board to have uses besides being a cannon fodder.
Imp horseman only do 2 more damage than spearman and attack almost as slowly. Horseman take forever to kill vills, meanwhile knights do 29 before taking into account charges (and knights can actually dive TC/Keep fire without evaporating). The biggest reason spearman aren’t that popular is because the main unit it counters is considered terrible.
Ignoring the fact that spears don’t win 1v1 vs a bombard, if they made 1 spear beat a knight 1v1, the knight would be like the worst unit in the game or they would have to like half its cost because that’s how game balance works lol. An 80 resource unit that doesn’t cost gold isn’t supposed to beat a 240 resource gold unit and it hasn’t in any aoe game and hopefully not in any RTS.
Completely true, What I think is happening is that players want to beat knights in an equal ratio when this should never happen given the current cost and time it takes to make knights / spears.
In my own experience/opinion Xbow/spear do very good already. Buffing them would break their already strong presence they got by making them OP, which then we will be asking for nerfs as cav will be utterly useless.
A knight is 240 total resources 1 spear is 60, Whoever who wants the spear to kill the knight or have equal chances with the bonus they already have, I feel is not in the right game. If we were to put 2 players both 200/200 one has 20 barracks and the other has 20 stables Pike vs Knight. The one pumping pikes will drain economy less faster than the one doing knights.
If we are to take 10 knights vs 10/15 pikes The player who micro the knight better will eventually come out as the winner he has paid more for his units. You need about 20+ pikes to have a clean fight vs 10 knights. I however think that 15 pikes can do decently
In my last 10 games I haven’t had the need to make a single knight. They don’t bring anything useful to my game plan and more so when there is one player massing pikes