Currently we have these following instances of lance-equipped cavalry:
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Units that have a lancer tag, and with a bonus against infantry:
Among them, lancer, elmetto, jat lancer and papal lancer have bonus against all infantry, while the rest only against non-heavy infantry.
Tribal horseman does not belong here as it has no bonus.
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Units that have a lancer tag, but do not have bonus:
Tribal horseman
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Units that don’t have a lancer tag and do not have bonus against infantry (similar to hussar):
Stradiot
Winged hussar and shock rider (can charge like the bosniak)
Lifidi knight
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Units that have a bonus against infantry but don’t have a lancer tag:
Tokala soldier
Cheyenne rider is another special case as it’s a cavalry counter.
2 and 4 I consider as oversights so they should be fixed.
Also, shock rider, bosniak and winged hussar have a special pose, but they don’t belong to the same type.
Unlike most other unit types it’s hard to infer the function of a cavalry with lance from its weaponry and tag. I think the usage of the tag and the unit roles should be standardized. For example:
- Lancer tag units always have bonus against infantry.
- Melee cavalry that counter infantry always have a lancer tag.
- All charge cavalry have lancer tag.
- Some visual distinction between lancer lance cavalry and non-lancer lance cavalry, eg the former use the bosniak/winged hussar pose and the latter use the stradiot pose.
- Some visual distinction between lancers that counter all infantry and lancers that only counter non-heavy infantry, eg the former are heavily armoured archaic cavalry and the latter are more modern cavalry (this may result in rework of the jat lancer, but it’s a bad unit already so not much impact)
Also, the Dutch red lancer gives the stradiot a bonus against infantry and even a lancer tag, which effectively turns it into a bosniak…so why not directly use bosniak instead?
The history section mentions Dutch hired bosniaks. However there is not much relation with Dutch and stradiot. The latter is there mainly because lack of merc types in vanilla.
9 Likes
so raiders, steppe rider and iron flail are lancers then?
I don’t mind cavalry with other weapons (like sword, flail, mace, torch) having multipliers against infantry as well, but at least make cavalry with lances have to have multipliers against infantry. When it’s a lancer, it should be good against infantry.
If it visually uses a lance and also has multipliers against infantry, give it the lancer tag, like Tokala Soldier.
If it visually uses a lance and but has no multipliers against infantry, consider to change the weapon and even change to hand light cavalry, like Cheyenne Rider.
If so, then there’s no reason Red Lancers aren’t Bosniaks.
1 Like
dutch already have a bosniaks shipment
Spanish get Walloon Guards when they also have Fusiliers shipment. It’s fine.
Or, the shipment can be changed to Stradiots when Red Lancers become Bosniaks.
Although I think the developers may not be willing to give up the Red Lancer skin of Stradiots which has only been released for a time.
the point is that it makes no difference to the historical context since they already have access to it.
What is the point of swapping the two then? just so that dutch can train bosniaks? when they already can train royal horsemen, Elmetto and the Red lancers?
Because red lancer turns stradiot into a bosniak by adding a tag, which is very unnatural.
There is already a mercenary cavalry that counters infantry with a lancer tag. There is no need to turn a different unit into it.
If Dutch happens to have both stradiot and bosniak in the saloon, then they effectively lost one of them.
I definitely dont think adding a tag constitute turning the stradiots into a bosniak, they are 2 completely different units with different stats and abilities
If they are adding combat promotions and charge attack to the stradiots then you might be on to something but a tag doesnt make a unit
thats the dice roll of the saloon innit, you win some you lose some
What I mean is there is no need.
If you want to give Dutch a lancer mercenary, there is a lancer mercenary. Why do you have to turn a unit that is not a lancer into a lancer?
I don’t think the stats of stradiot plus a lancer tag fits Dutch gameplay so much better than a bosniak with its promotion and charge plus some stats buffs, that you have to choose to implement the former regardless of the more convoluted path.
1 Like
people wanted historical references dont they?
the devs wanted one and made it, up to them what the reference is and how they want to do it.
we are talking about the same devs that added the leonardo tank as a normal unlockable unit in the game.
if they think this is the reference they want and they probably also dont want to give dutch access guaranteed trainable bosniaks, thats their design choice
Then I’d like to know the reason behind that particular choice. At least I see no significant impact on gameplay. Does Dutch desperately need a unit with the exact stradiot stats plus a lancer tag? And no other unit can fulfill that role?
And a napoleonic skin with a more archaic lance is also a very strange combination. If the unit represents “red lancer” it should use a lance like the eclaireur.
I mean if we are going down that route then dutch also neither need the buckriders, the Dutch states army or blue guards trainable from the fort either.
The devs make whatever decisions they want to make, for good or for bad.
What if mahouts have a lesser penalty vs HI?? Eles are suppoused to ######### canons for india…
Also, what if sowars lost the penalty?? I mean, they have low HP already so they would keep be countered by HI but at least can counter grenadiers in a easier way for example
2 Likes
So you basically came in to tell me “it happens because of a reason”.
Good to know.
No im here to say that the devs can make what decisions they want, be it for a reason or for no reason, trying to ask why x was done in the forums, unless the devs are here and willing to talk is just talking to a wall.
What I said was that dutch already has access to bosniaks, there is no point to changing the red lancer shipments to bosniaks.
If anything I think it would be incredibly bad balance wise for dutch to have guaranteed access to bosniaks considering how much they swing games already.
If what you want to ask is why the devs decided to make the red lancer, all I can say is I dont know, I can speculate but I dont know
It’s wildly inconsistent and absolutely needs to be standardized. Basically all of the Asian cavalry units have a multiplier against infantry and a multiplier that negates it against heavy infantry yet some are lancers and some aren’t. It has remained a convoluted mess partly because the only implication of the lancer tag is whether or not Caballeros affects a unit. So the tag is only actually relevant to Spain, Mexico, Italy, and Germany (Argentine Revolution). But it would be nice if there was a bit of standardization from a unit recognition standpoint so players could get familiar with the role and more easily recognize units in the class.
I think they should be given a more standard set of attributes that set them apart and make them more recognizable.
1) Multiplier against ALL infantry
The Asian style cavalry whose infantry multiplier is fully canceled out against heavy infantry should not get the lancer tag. However, there are a few units that follow this template but should clearly still be lancers like Mahout Lancers and Chinacos so they could have their heavy infantry multiplier improved or removed. Changing it to x0.75 for both of those units would be reasonable (with other adjustments like removing the hand cav multiplier and reducing range).
2) Increased Range
All lancer type units should have longer than normal range. Pikemen got this treatment after many years so lancers could get the same. After all, the purpose of a lance is to strike outside the range of your foe’s weapon. They should have at least 2.5 range by default (same as what they have after Caballeros now). To prevent them from getting too ridiculous range after Caballeros, the card could enable the Lance Charge ability instead of increasing range (Presidential Lancers could grant range instead of the charged attack).
3) Lance Charge ability
Any units that have the Lance Charge or Winged Charge abilities should be classed as a lancer (and also have the above attributes). Conversely, the Lance Charge ability should be more widely available for the lancer units that don’t have it. This could be done by tweaking the Caballeros card as follows:
Caballeros
Current: Lancers get +1 multiplier against infantry and +1 range
New: Lancers get +1 multiplier against infantry and the Lance Charge ability
This would also make the card a little more compatible with some of the more powerful mercenaries and natives that already have a charged attack and long range since they wouldn’t be able to get it twice (Winged Hussars should not get both abilities).
4) Pose
Not everything that carries a lance necessarily needs to be classed as a lancer. Units that are actual lancers could have their lance pointed forward, and those that aren’t could hold it upright or to the side. To avoid any confusion, instead of the tag being called “lance cavalry”, it could be renamed “charge cavalry” or “shock cavalry” instead. There’s really no reason it has to be named after the archetypical unit. Something similar could also be done for “musket infantry” by renaming the tag to “line infantry” since half of them don’t carry muskets.
Appropriate Charge Cavalry (Lance Cavalry) Units
All of the units listed below should be classed as “charge cavalry” and should be adjusted to fit the attributes listed above (multiplier against all infantry and longer range).
- Bosniak
- Chinaco
- Eclaireur
- Elmetto
- Jat Lancer
- Lancer
- Llanero
- Mahout Lancer
- Papal Lancer
- Qizilbash
- Red Lancer
- Shock Rider
- Tokala Soldier
- Winged Hussar
3 Likes
Uhlans needs lances, while we are at this topic.
Yes I agree it’s more convenient to make all Asian-type cavalry non-lancers.
Naginata and sowar belonging to the lancer class and benefits from lancer upgrades does not make much sense.
Is there a card or tech that affects lancers rather than caballeros?
