So as an Aztec god myself, I couldn’t avoid the subject, so I cease the SotL video occasion: the downfall of one of the most iconic AoE II civ. Not the Franks. Not the Britons. Not today. The Aztecs.
What happened?
Nerfed in their eco bonus (free loom, carry capacity), and probably rightfully so, our Aztec friends have never had the best late game. What can they do when the developping gods decide to hand so much power and options to so many other civilisations but them? The power creep has now long overshadowed our friends.
What has been done to help? Instead of tuning down other civs, our friends were arguably helped by the sworsdman-line buffs (though insufficient) and Jaguar Warrior (though insufficient, bis repetita). Arguably though, swordsmen buffs helped better countering their Eagle Warriors, who were also hit by the (necessary) +5 food cost. The recent small buff to the military creation speed is nice, but I would argue won’t be enough.
A solution?
Choose amongst the following
I would favour a military solution, faithful to our Aztec friends’ style:
The Castle UT, Atlatl could, on top of affecting skirmishers, affect eagle warriors, giving them +1 attack, +1 vs cavalry.
Jaguar Warrior are arguably alright where they are at, but they are far from OP, and thus could be part of the solution. A price cut to 60f 20g, would seem reasonable. Giving Elite Jaguar +5 vs Pikemen, +5 vs Eagle Warriors, or even +5 vs Skirmishers would feel fine by me. → This would not solve the global issue, but make the Imperial peak a bit more interesting.
A bit difficult to justify historically, but now Heavy Scorpions seems like an interesting possible addition… → Not the most “Aztec solution”…
A more radical solution, surely not to be read be innocent souls, would be to appoint a new regional units to Aztecs and Mayans. I would lean towards a skirmisher imperial upgrade, e.g. called Atlatl (40 HP, 4 attack, 5 range, and identical stats to the Elite Skirmisher otherwise). To remove the Aztecs’ and Mayans’ Catsle UT and to give them a new UT to address their civilisations’ weaknesses (e.g. swordsman line +5 vs infantry for the Mayans; a Human sacrifice UT for Aztecs, refunding 5 gold per military unit killed or/and dead). → This would help the very late game, to compensate for the heavy gold reliance.
Disclaimer: I think one day the American civilisations’ navy problem (the lack of building-destroyers) shall be addressed, but I don’t know how. This is far from important though.
PS: The Imperial UT of American civs should affect the Xolotl warrior for extra flavour.
Well, actually Mayans do get Atonement so they can convert an enemy monk who already has Redemption researched and take that monk to convert a stable 11
I think they still are rather underwhelming. I agree that making them a bit cheaper would be a good idea. I’d also like to see them move a litte bit faster, something like 1.05 or 1.1 base speed, so that they no longer get outrun by other Infantry UUs like Berserks, Huskarls or Urumis (all 1.05).
I agree that Americas Imperial UT should also affect the Xolotl, and even perhaps allows them to be trained at TC or castle once researched at longer training times(like 40s each).
For Jaguar Warrior, my solution would be by adding +1 pierce armor, and base move speed increase to 1.1(1.21 with Squires). My reasoning is currently at the cost of 60F/30G, they cost the same with Poles Cavalier. Poles Cavalier takes 24 hits from fully upgraded Arbalester like the Magyars one, and by giving +1 pierce armor to Jaguar, the Jaguar now takes 25 hits from 19 currently from the same Arbalester attacks. The increased movement speed will make Jaguar become a pseudo heavy cavalry for the Aztec which is still a unique concept for an Americas civilization.
I really do not support a shirtless guy getting more pierce armor…
By looking at the Aztecs statistics, they seem to do well enough against archer civs but get absolutely destroyed by civs with strong infantry early on, so really the jaguar also needs faster training time on top of the suggested reduced costs and faster movement speed
I’d even suggest giving them an early game buff because infantry civs don’t really focus on just infantry(because infantry are poorly designed), those civs also focus on other buffs to help keep up, but that’d be too much against certain civs(that focus on archers) so the early game buff needs to be military focused on not targetting those civs … maybe a buff like skirmishers +2 attack vs infantry?
Redemption and Atonement don’t work like that. And in case you don’t know, neither do Heresy.
100% agree with this one. I wish their cost tweaked to 70f/15g but I think 1.10 speed will be a better idea. Alternatively buffing Militia line will automatically buff JW without even touching it. Another idea is improving their MA. I think they should have 3 MA increased from 1 (2 for Elite).
They have a design problem, they are definitely not OK.
I would much prefer it if they did not have any melee armour at all and instead were much faster. By design, they should protect the eagles from their weak points, but in practice, it is extremely difficult.
i think Aztecs should get, Atlat buff(extend its bonus to eagles and pikemen or +2 attack to eagles and pikemen) and a jaguar buff either a price cut, a generic buff or bonus than make thems more unique like every 3 jaguars kills you get a free villager
When a civ has recently been buffed, wait to see how it plays out at mid and higher elos. It might be insufficient or it might be completely fine. You’d have to wait for 2 or 3 months to see stats on how they matchup against other civs.
This could be a nice decent change. Will impact the outcome of fights in most early imp situations and since its tied behind UT, won’t be overpowered either.
This unit doesn’t have a clear purpose. Building multiple castles and doing unique unit just to kill infantry or skirms a bit faster is not worth it. So 10 gold adjustment might be ok but not going to make the unit viable as such. Problem lies elsewhere not on the gold cost. And its not a problem just for jaguars. Most other moderate speed infantry with similar stats face this problem.
Can’t give halb or heavy scorps as long as they have the insane hp bonus on monks.
Maybe you played in the 2000s and jumped right to 2024 but Imperial skirmishers exist in game today with stats similar to what you’ve mentioned. Its the unique upgrade and team bonus of Vietnamese. And Mayans today get a very powerful upgrade on their skirms which makes them shoot an extra projectile. So they kind of already have what you’re suggesting.
Weakness in post imp after gold runs out is by design. Its already well compensated by Mayan longer lasting resources helping them control and get more gold. And the relic bonus from Aztecs. These civs are expected to have gold in the stockpile longer compared to others, so typically you’re only weak after 1 hour of game time. That’s fine. Less than 10% games last that long They also have decent early game benefit and strong bonuses throughout the mid game. A civ shouldn’t be very strong at all phases of the game.
That’s fine though. Navy isn’t balanced across the game. You have less than a dozen civs viable and just 5-6 very good navy civs.
That’s a gimmick unit and changes to it won’t matter.
I agree, but the matter of speed is always the talking point for all infantry (there is a lot of talk of putting swordsmen base to 0.96, etc. which Jaguar would also get to 1.05). I say let them double down on what they do. And then if infantry in general becomes more appealing, so does the Jaguar. Especially with additional damage vs infantry or specific classes (pikement, eagles, etc.).
The concept is unique, and in this I like it. However, I don’t know if it’s fair to say it would take the place of heavy cav, even then. Not as fast, not cav, and there is overlap with the eagle warrior (although with different counters). To meditate.
Disagreed for training building: it is a meme, let’s leave it this way. But make it more civilisation flavourful!
That is supposed to be their economy, mostly. I guess access to faster training eagles in Feudal also helps.
I am aware, but the point would be to make it a regional upgrade here, and to free space for the Castle Age upgrades. And a bit different from Imperial Skirm.
So, this is kinda my Aztec white whale but, I don’t think it make much sense in a historical context for the Aztecs to be clad in leather and steel and welding European swords. I think their Militia and Spearmen unit lines are quite nonsensical given what the Aztec had access to with their Archer and Skirmisher unit lines being less so. Now I know replacing a bunch of common units that every civ gets with quasi unique units is not what AOE2 DE is known for. However, the Aztecs I’d argue are a special case.