What?
Keshik upgrades:
-Bloodlines
-Husbandry
-Elite (700 Food, 900 Gold)
-Scale, Chain and Plate Barding Armour
-Forging, Iron Casting and Blast Furnace
-Conscription
Tatar Knight:
-Bloodlines
-Husbandry
-Cavalier (300 Food, 300 Gold)
-Scale, Chain and Plate Barding Armour
-Forging, Iron Casting and Blast Furnace
-Conscription
They have the same number of upgrades, and the Elite Keshik is much more expensive than Cavalier (+150% in Food, +200% in Gold).
Well it was given for them to deal with Camel and Elephant civs, which they do, lacking melee armor doesnât affect much, the damage back is important
yeah but you guess what?
i just ran a test. guess what the results were.
10 keshik vs 10 knights.
6 knights survived. meaning the knight player lost 240 food and 300 gold.
the keshik player lost 10 keshik, costing 500 food and 400g. even if they generate some gold for attacking, they still arenât taking favorable trades.
and that was assuming generic paladins. not frankish (which would be trained faster and thus give me more numbers), not lithuanians, which would ignore armor and thus take better trades, and not teuton who get extra armor.
They do have Flaming Camels for that; and Free Thumb Ring + Parthian Tactics pushed them towards Cava Archers, which can kite BEs well enough.
Have you even watched the SoTL video?
Weâre talking KESHIKS vs PALADINS here
They perform extremely cost effectively vs PALADINS.
So yes they have MUCH MUCH LESS upgrade costs. And faster upgrades.
a meme unit that costs gold and locked behind an imperial UT, you canât be serious
I am. Tatars have Heavy Camels and Flaming Camels, they do not strictly need Halbs.
I do not mind that they have Halbs, but if I was set on taking a unit from them, it would be the Halbs.
Saracens and Turks (specially the Turks) deal with Camels and BEs with their own Camels too.
Paladins trade both cost and population effectively, with Keshiks.
Only Knights and Cavaliers did not.
equal resources are just unrealistic with pop caps and production limits and the army group you can control, in any case, you arenât gonna use Keshiks against Paladins in a TG because the Paladin player will happily keep spamming Palas from his 20 stables with the trade and push you back, same thing in 1v1, youâre better off with camels and halbs. Equal resources is only relevant for scenario editor fights
if you use equal resources and actually manage to somehow produce more keshik then they produce paladins. that is the problem with spirit of the laws test. it assumes equal resources.
show me you actually manage to produce more keshiks then your opponent produces knights.
good luck with that. youâd need at minimum (#Enemy Stables/2)+1 castles to pull that off.
exactly. the enemy can produce far more stables then the tatar player can make castles.
yeah in theory if you somehow manage to take an equal resources fight the tatar player will smoke the paladin player. but the fact is that would require the paladin player to screw up.
You are obvoiusly going to mix in some Knights with Keshiks in Castle Age to kickstart the numbers. And the Keshiks within that group will perform the best.
Keshiks are also faster in movement. And can easily run away whenever the engagement feels ineffective, which it rarely will, because Keshiks cost HALF.
Mongols and tatara donât have paladin. Why are we discussing keshik vs paladin now? I thought we talked about SL?
Why are we discussing keshik vs paladin now? I thought we talked about SL?
Because some people need to be told a thousand times (with video evidence) that the Tatars dont need the Knight-Line having much much better Keshiks , and especially after a proposed SL BUFF.
Same with the Mongols, who will have 30% extra HP BUFFED SL
Keshik are better than knights and cavalier. So tatara are fine without knights. The buffed SL another option. Tatara donât have to just another geegric knight Spammer and donât suffer much without them.
Mongols are a bit different. Remove knights and cavalier does take away a meatshield from them that a new glass Canon SL doesnât fill But Mongols anyway use light cav meat shield with all their gold in mangudai behind that.
Mongols needed to use the SL which is less armored but fast and punishing. Should be historically more accurate to how Mongols actually fought battles.
Maybe mongol lose a 1% winrate because of this, but to be honest that is negligible. Maybe they even gain some when SL are sufficient snowbally again.
EXACTLY +1
EXACTLY +1
If you really like knights/cav archer play, you call still pick magyars and huns. If you want to move on something different, pick mongols and tartars SL/cav archers.
There are already TONS of Knight spamming civs.
I argue the Cumans should recieve the Imperial Steppe Lancer, the Third Stage of the Steppe Lancers, instead of being yet another Bland Knight->Cavalier->Paladin spamming civilization.
I think everything is said. Many Points agaiat and in fsvour have been made and discussed. If we are lucky the devs read this and have made their own opinion.
Anyway I feel like further talking about this is pointless. Feel free to continue, I am out.
One of the best thing about knights is you can immediately start to produce them when you hit castle and get a powerspike as a follow up to scouts. Castle UUs just canât replace knights because of that and youâll end up losing momentum
thats silly, what if I WANT to play Mongols and tatars and not get shoehorned with a worse unit?
and if youâre mixing in knights, why would i make knights at all? iâd just go straight camels or pikes and wreck your entire army.
and again, that would matter if you could out produce knights from stables, but you canât. and if you run away from my army, iâll just go attack your base.
the SL sucks though. you want to buff it but assume its cost isnât going to change?
only if they outnumber them. which shouldnât happen, because keshik require a castle. good luck making keshik faster then i can make knights.
i can start making knights the moment i hit castle age. can you make keshik the moment you hit castle age?
exactly. the knight line doesnât need t o be removed from mongols, cumans, and tatars. just make the SL able to fullfill a role.
thus why i suggested making it a raider unit with bonus to villagers and siege.
yeah it costs gold unlike the scout line, but it would be setup in a way to kill stuff faster then them.
got gold? use the SL.
not so much? use the LC
so what are they supposed to do until they get to their castle down and get sufficient mangudai to be effective?
this game has literally never made historically accuracy a centerpiece of its game play.
i mean weâve literallly had European knights for every civ since the game launched (Except meso and Indians). we have a chinese civ who lacks gunpowder.
we have frankish throwing axeman who throw a DOUBLE SIDED axe (GLWT).
we have a civ titled âVikingsâ. please show me where the viking civilization is. (Hint, it doesnât exist)
more then that. early castle is now a huge weak spot for mongols.
Its insane how people still dont understand that Castles dont simply appear out of nowhere. Or that making a castle is a huge investment in early castle age. Its like when watching Vipers stream and people are like " why didnt u make UU xyz?". Then Viper calmy as ever explains that making a castle/castles is an investment that sets you behind in eco, so you need a unit that is either dangerous in low(er) numbers or that you want to stick with longterm.
Keshiks, Boyars, Leitis etc. are all strong units, but at earliest for late castle age. If u start making them in early castle age, its quite easy for your opponent to counter that. And then you sit there with a considerably worse eco and no good unit.