Instead they should “slightly” improve SL to encourage their use to be a bit more cost efficient. I think that knights and SL are complementary units in crowded situations, for example when attacking a ball of archers. Knights first to absorve arrows and SL to attack from behind.
3 Likes
Instead of taking away Knights from civs that have Steppe Lancer, why don’t you just delete the Steppe Lancer from the game all together. Obviously, if people aren’t using them, that means they don’t want to use it. The devs should avoid making drastic changes to this 20 year old game (knights in castle), or they may screw up the game.
I think that the whole point of removing knights is just to add more variety to the game.
Currently SL is worse than knights in direct fight and worse than scouts in raiding because of its gold cost.
Clearly, a buff to SL would be a buff to the civs having it.
Removing knights may work if the new SL is actually useful. For instance it can be faster and cheaper than knights and camels, so that is has the chance to retreat when needed. Then other options you have correctly said, like more bulk and attack rate, bonus vs villagers.
Mongols and Tatars are not knight-specific. So you can buff their SL and nerf their stable by removing knights. Compared to huns and Magyars they will be stronger in some situations, weaker in other. In some sense is the same of having eagles instead of cavalry.
Cumans are different since their late game requires heavy cavalry. They would need an imperial upgrade for the SL, maybe just bringing it closer to the original version. But just for cumans.
2 Likes
Steppe Lancers are used, they are great at killing Vills, even behind Walls or in tight spaces.
Exactly, so let’s remove Knights from Mongols Cumans Tatars, give cumans the Paladin equivalent of “Imperial Steppe Lancer” and make the SL stats as follows, turning them into a faster moving Knight-Line with 1 range!
Cost: 70F 45G (unchanged), TT: 24 seconds (unchanged, 12s for Cumans)
Fire rate: 2.3s (unchanged, 20% slower than Knight)
Steppe Lancer (Cheaper faster Knight with 1 range)
HP: 80 (up from 60, 100 with bloodlines) (124 HP for Mongols)
Atk: 9
A/PA: 1/1 (up from 0/1) (1/2 for Tatars)
Speed:1.45 vs (Knight’s 1.35)
OBSERVATIONS: With these stats, especially the +20HP and +1 melee armor, they should be able to upset opposing Knights in Castle Age, by having better reach+stacking, as well as being able to easily run away after any discomfort, and even from Camels.
And Remember, Tatars will get +1 PA after Silk Armor, Mongols will get 130% HP.
Even with Silk Armor done, Tatars, however should (and will) aim to mix in more and more Keshiks still, as they are much cheaper.
Elite Steppe Lancer (Cheaper faster Cavalier with 1 range)
HP: 95 (up from 80, 115 with bloodlines) (144 HP for Mongols)
Atk: 11
A/PA: 2/1 (up from 0/1) (2/2 for Tatars)
Speed:1.45
OBSERVATIONS: The stat change here is almost identical to that of the Cavalier upgrade. Another melee armor for them to keep up with Cavalier higher attack speed.
For Tatars however, Keshiks will still be kept the better option in Imperial for obvious reasons.
Imperial Steppe Lancer (Cumans ONLY)
HP: 120 (140 with bloodlines)
Atk: 13
A/PA: 2/2
Speed:1.45
Point being, Increased HP and MELEE Armor of SL to make them the Knight substitutes they should have been. They can even run away from Camels, making them really effective in melee matchups.
What do you guys think of these stat changes?? Done this after lot of consideration.
Now tell me, are they not good enough as a Knight->Cavalier->Paladin substitute
Tell me, how the Mongols wouldn’t go for 124HP, 1/1->2/1 armor, 45 Gold SL immediately after Castle age like they do with plain old Knights.
2 Likes
How about a eeason you think its fair instead of just flagging?
Comparisons to knight.
Less attack (9 vs 10)
Slower attack (2.3 vs 1.8)
Lower hp (80 vs 100)
Lower pierce armor (1 vs 2)
Higher food cost (70 vs 60)
Higher speed (1.45 vs 1.35)
Better range (1 vs melee)
Better training time (24 vs 30)
Better los (5 vs 4)
Lower gold cost (45 vs 75)
Also what’s the upgrade cost and time?
Look, I have given my subjective explanations for why it needs to be done and how it can be balanced many times on the thread before, but you just ignore it everytime and keep asking me again
And its not the same attack as the Paladin or Leitis as you complained in the flagged post, the SL attack as much as 20% slower while leitis also get relic bonus AND armor ignore ability.
And yet your unit stacks more (smaller collision), is easier to mass, moves faster and has +1 range. Relic bonus isn’t guaranteed by any stretch, unlike the various bonuses that apply to steppe lancer like extra health for mongols or silk armor for Tatars.
Also. Whats your upgrade costs?
1 Like
Very very high for Imperial steppe lancer(Paladin level)
Relic bonus isn’t guaranteed by any stretch, unlike the various bonuses that apply to steppe lancer like extra health for mongols or silk armor for Tatars.
SL attack as much as 20% slower while leitis get guaranteed armor negation and 3 MORE ATTACK than elite SL, one more than proposed Imp SL
2 Likes
and steppe lancer move faster, stack better, and have +1 range. Also which is easier to mass?
1 Like
What does everyone else think of these stat changes?? Done this after lot of consideration.
i think you should include your upgrade costs and times.
You’re saying that +1 range (the stacking was already nerfed - it won’t be as strong as before) is better than the +2 to +5 attack of Leitis (+5=full armor)? Which also cost less, and attack faster?
I’m very confused. His stats actually look very good to me - even vs Knights. With upgrade costs balanced it could work.
2 Likes
First of all, the stacking may be nerfed but its also still better.
Secondly the leitis isn’t cheaper.
Thirdly his initial stats included 2/1 armor straight from just base steppe lancer. And imperial lancer had 14 attack.
And you underestimate the value of mobility, range, creation speed and the fact that the steppe lancer doesn’t need a castle to make.
1 Like
Well, being able to stack alone isn’t even remotely close to being better than the attack bonus of Leitis.
Leitis is 70f 50g. 5g more. Don’t know what I was thinking.
His stats were 1/1, not 2/1. That’s lower than Knight.
14 attack on Imperial Lancer is fine. They would be considerably lower HP than Paladin and still have an upgrade cost.
I don’t underestimate mobility or range. They can choose to take fights vs Knights (while still being slower than Camels). That’s an advantage. They would also be less armored, do less damage, and require a significant numbers of additional units to be effective. No stat here screams broken to me. They all seem to mesh fairly well without overstepping and being broken vs Knights. Knights would still win one-on-one, and do considerably better against ranged units.
I’m not against tweaking stats, but I’m also not against the concept. I want to refine it to see if it could actually work, instead of tearing down the entire idea.
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Well first of all, how are you getting +8 damage?
Secondly stacking allows more of them in a smaller area and coupled with the +1 range can be quite deadly. We’ve already seen what that accomplished.
Go look at it before the edit. Initial post was 2 melee/1 pierce.
Which has not been mentioned. And it might be lower hp, but its still got that 1 range. With great micro you could literally kill paladins without getting hit.
1 less pierce armor. Not a lot.
Good thing thry train 30% faster and cost 40% less gold huh?
Nothing individually screams broken. But all together?
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Well I’m sorry, but I’m against making core changes to game design of a 20 year old game. Literally worked well up until now and game is loved. Why do we got to reinvent the wheel? And im not tearing his idea down. I just think his stats are broken.
1 Like
3 extra base damage, then +5 for full armor on Cavalry.
I used your quote for my numbers , which I assumed was taken from pre-edit.
Totally impossible without 0 frame delay. Even Kipchaks have trouble not getting hit vs archers with micro.
1 pierce armor is a lot. In Imperial age that’s the difference between taking 4 and 3 damage. That’s 33% (or 25% depending on your viewpoint). They also have 75% of the HP. That’s a huge difference versus ranged units.
But they are weaker. Like I said, I’m not against the concept. But you are. You’re against a big change like this for the sake of being against change (it’s an old game). That’s a poor attitude IMO. We already got the Last Khans civilizations, which were introduced with DE - have you forgotten this? Steppe Lancers themselves are only less than 6 months old! That’s a big enough change that this isn’t really out of the question at all.
If the only way to fix Steppe Lancers without making them overlap too heavily with Knights is to make them replace Knights for these civs, I’m okay with that - if we can analyze the concept to make it as strong as possible, and it looks okay, then maybe the devs can seriously consider it. I want to help this idea work, if it’s possible and ends up making sense. If after review, it doesn’t make sense and wouldn’t help the game, then scrap it. No harm, no foul.
1 Like
that assumes the Lithuanians player gets 4 relics. Bold assumption.
Either way, they are gonna take less hits. And elite and imp have as much armor as a heavy cavalry.
I’m against redesigning what’s already working.
Why is it a poor attitude? Literally nothing added has redesigned the game. Only added to it and tuned. This isn’t anything like adding new civs or adding units. You’re straight up changing the design of the game.
Steppe lancers being added is no different then adding battle elephants.
Now steppe lancers replacing an entire unit? Different situation.
Its literally not the only option.
Also food for thought. While Parthnan wants them to replace the knight line for these civs…
He’s giving them the benefits of heavy cavalry (higher attack, armor, and health), while also getting the benefits of light cavalry (speed, training time, line of sight, cheaper training cost) and benefits from civ benefits that benefit light cav (mongols extra health, Cumans training speed, and tatars extra pierce armor).
Doesn’t that set off some red flags at least?
According to his numbers.
Mongol castle age would have 130 health. Elite would have 149.5 health (149 or 150 unsure how it would work in game). Better then knights or cavs.
Tatars? So much for missing that one pierce armor.
Cumans? According to his numbers? 12 second training time before conscription
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I edited my post. No relics is already +8, unless you’d be Cumans with Imperial Steppe lancer. 5 armor on cavalry fully upgraded, and they have 3 higher base attack. That’s 8. With 4 relics it’s 12, while attacking far slower. The damage output is pathetic compared to upgraded Leitis or Paladin, especially with relics.
It is a different situation, you’re right. I’m also aware that it isn’t the only option - but not many have been suggested that actually work, without getting constant complaints of them stepping on the toes of the Knight or just being straight up better/worse than the Knight. This is the only solution I’ve seen so far that addresses those complaints. I don’t know if it’s the best option, but it is an option to look at.
As for giving the benefits - not quite. It’s far lower damage, still! 90% of the damage of a Knight while attacking at 80% of the speed. Lower HP by 15-20%. Lower armor. They should be faster, train faster, LOS etc even with those bonuses. He’s shifting the balance from being a light-cav with range to being between a Knight and Light Cav, which is where the sweet spot is IMO. Especially if the Knight was replaced by them, you could move that line between the two units wherever it felt best instead of worrying about making one unit useless for that civ.
I’d move the gold cost up slightly, between 45-55g, if all those stats became reality. But again, I think the concept of replacing the Knight for these 3 civs could work. Doesn’t have to replace the Knight, but it would solve some complaints and leave no useless units while giving these Civs something unique to play with. Cuman Imperial Steppe Lancers+Kipchak would actually be a really cool combo with these stats.
1 Like