Steppe lancers, keshiks, and tartars

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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So, there are a couple of thought streams here.

First, steppe lancers don’t see alot of use. They don’t really have a role, and they are either underpowered or overpowered.

Second, the cavalier vs the keshik. A group of cavaliers is just… better at taking down a TC, and while part of this is absolutely due to the fact that cavs have 1 more attack, a big part is due to the fact that keshiks have terrible pathing, and can’t seem to all engage at same time like cavs can.

Third, tartars. Tartars get flaming camels which are criminally underused, but they also get superiour trebuchets. This leads to a situation where keshiks are not produced, and instead cavs, hussars, or steppe lancers are produced because better trebs > cavalry.

Castle age keshiks are ok, but in the imp age, they are almost never produced, so why even bother researching elite keshik? So, all that said, here is an idea for tartars that fixes a few things.

What if the keshik were turned into a pair of technologies that targeted the Tartar steppe lancer? The elite
steppe lancer and the elite Keshik have the same attack. With silk armor, the armor for steppe lancers is just 1 less pierce armor than the keshik. The big differences are that steppe lancers have 80 hitpoints, but keshiks have 140 hitpoints, steppe lancers hit slightly slower, Keshiks generate gold on attack, and steppe lancers have 1 range…

So, keshik training at the castle.

Keshik training: Your steppe lancers now generate gold when they attack, and have 15 additional hitpoints.

Elite Keshik training: Your steppe lancers get an additional 15 hitpoints, and 1p armor.

So, this new Steppe lancer with full keshik training gets 30 additional hitpoints bringing it up to 110 hitpoints. This is less hitpoints than a current keshik or a cavalier. It has identical armor to a current keshik. It has identical damage, slightly slower attack, and 1 range. In combat, it will deal higher initial damage against structures, but the damage for small groups will fall off. compared to current keshiks, because its atk speed is lower. For larger groups (30+) the damage will remain much higher, but the overall efficiency at destroying enemy units is lower. It costs 10 more food than a current keshik, but it can be massed at the stables.

So, if massed, it really is just a more resilient Steppe lancer, and it gives a big role to tartar steppe lancers.

Thoughts?

2 Likes
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Nice idea, but I think keshiks are already goods as they are. They have a middle position between hussards and knights: not as strong as the knight-line but very cost-effective, actually one of the most cost-effective unit of the game.

The problem is more that flaming camels are really niche, and too costly for what they can do, and that steppe lancers have became quite useless and need an serious buff. Once the unit gets valuable stats, it will fit well in a tatar army composition, as a frail but with good capacities if micro-managed well which can use the elevation bonus easily, without taking the place of keshiks.

3 Likes
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Flaming Camels would be so cool if made more cost effective.

You can actually get them in some scenarios in CBA if you get tatars and then you can spam them. It’s great :wink:

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The problem isn’t the fact that keshiks are balanced or cost effective. Their current position is PERFECT. The problem is that their maneuvering leaves much to be desired, and their production competes against flaming camels and upgraded trebuchets.

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Except flaming camels are rarely made. And I’ve literally never heard of a cavalry unit having worse pathing then other cavalry units do the way you claim keshiks do. Can you show us some real proof of this?

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Yup. go make a game and pump out a bunch of cavaliers, then pump out a bunch of keshiks. 60 in each army. Then, go attack a town center with each one. The keshiks will take more time to circle the building than either hussars or cavs. And as to why I really dont know.

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I don’t agree, i think keshiks are one of the best unique units in the game, i dont think they need a buff at all.

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All units that have larger hitboxes and cheaper cost have worse pathing by nature. Because they just use the space they occupy less efficiently. Keshiks have the same Hitbox as knights (AS FAR AS I KNOW) but since theyre cheaper you get more units for the same cost and more units => more bumping => “worse pathing”

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I tried it multiple times and saw no noticeable difference.
Furthermore keshiks might have 1 less attack but they have 1 more pierce armor and 20 more health. All while being cheaper then cavalier too. This means that keshik will last far longer and you won’t lose as many resources attacking a tc

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If they’re all alive, maybe.
But keshiks last a lot longer under TC fire than cavaliers.
The keshiks will generally do better.

a big part is due to the fact that keshiks have terrible pathing, and can’t seem to all engage at same time like cavs can.

This is a fantasy you have created.
They have the same hit/collison box.

Castle age keshiks are ok, but in the imp age, they are almost never produced, so why even bother researching elite keshik?

I rarely see Tatar players making cavaliers and it’s much more common to see elite keshiks.
Elite keshiks have a very good reputation, which is why a few patches ago their cost was increased slightly.

Everything I posted here is a fact, not an opinion.
You should check unit stats and do scenario editor tests before you make forum posts about removing units from the game.

1 Like
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This is so wrong on so many levels, starting with, and finishing with, you should never ever target a TC with a large mass of units to take it down until you have already run under it. The idea that either Keshiks or Cavaliers would circle the building is a failure of control of the player using them.

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Try with a castle then, not a TC. Or a lumbercamp. Measure how long each takes to die.

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Wait, Keshiks not only do less damage than cavaliers in equal numbers, but they also have slower rof.
Cavalier attacks every 1.8 seconds, Keshiks every 1.9
Seems a tiny difference but coupled with lower attack you can feel it.

14

Cavaliers actually have a sound when they hit their target. Keshiks are so quiet… :frowning:

1 Like
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I know, it’s like Kamayuks compared to Champions. :sweat_smile:

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The second reason why this is wrong, the Keshik is not an anti-building unit. It’s only special feature goes away when you attack buildings. Castle, lumbercamp, no matter what.

TC’s make sense because they spit out villagers that are worth gold. None of the others do.

The Tatars have fully upped siege rams, and the longest-ranged trebuchets in the game for clearing important defensive structures and any chaff. Keshiks are not meant to be, or needed to be, anti building.

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My bad, you’re right. Maybe flaming camels should be put somewhere else then, like in the siege workshop.

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They are even worse for raiding vils. :frowning:

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Well, not worse than regular cavalry.
Keshiks are slightly faster (speed, not attack) than Paladins/Cavaliers and still kill villagers in 3 strikes, generating a bit of gold with them (I believe 1 gold for each villager), obviously they’re slower (again speed) than hussars, but Hussars need 4 strikes.