Dear Beloved AOE2 Developers,
Title is very self explainatory, Plz revert the Mangudai Speed back to 1.5 again. The change was done over a year ago and I didn’t bother opening a discussion hoping the nerf would be reverted but clearly that never happened.

Giving Mongol Unique Unit the same speed as Cav Archers doesn’t really make the unit unique anymore, Unique unit should have a slight edge. We all know how much Mongol player relies on their Unique Unit as they have no eco bonuses after dark age and Mangudai is already so hard to mass , so I am not sure why everyone keeps saying it’s an OP unit. It sure isn’t as OP as it used to be and historically speaking, these guys were the fastest and strongest military machine force that the world has ever witnessed so please stop nerfing Mangudai and make them great again as the world has witnessed them.

Unit Balance is hard but just like how they nerfed the hunting bonus from 50 to 40% with the addition of Stepple Lancers, why not drop it down to 35% and make Mangudai glorious again (compensation for nerf and buff)

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FU Mangudai is one of the hardest things to stop and mongol late game is really strong. Elite mangudai should not get buffs imo. if they want to balance the unit, a nerf would be more realistic.


Yes sir my point exactly! its the hardest thing in the game then why nerf them?
if you let the mongol player mass up their UU then you deserve to get punished, just like how they all tell you not to let the Goth players reach their late game potential. I am just saying that the speed nerf was not necessary at all…

I don’t know how you could say that since Mangudai is the only cavalry archer that can shred rams/elephant rams/deployed trebuchets in mere seconds, compared to other mounted archers.
It was never the faster speed that made them unique, since the introduction of Kipchaks (even faster than Mangudais in imperial age). It’s their anti-siege and faster firing that makes them unique, and still at 1.4 base speed they can evade knights.

According to you even the Camel Archers are not unique enough, since they share the same speed as regular cavalry archers :rofl:


Well kipchaks shred rams faster than mangudai and do okay vs trebs too. Although they’re nowhere as strong as Elite mangudai

Rams, yes, but not all siege weapons/units, and for example not the new elephant rams which can go to at least 0 melee armor. So they still retain a nice advantage, plus the overall damage output due to faster rate of fire and higher HP.
On the Kipchaks’ side there is the low cost, which is quite nice.

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A post asking for a buff to one of the best units in the game 11


I think mangudai are the well balance beforming uu i seen besides some other dont really need a buff tho also the nerfs they did was it to make it easier to see the slight difference hc and mang haves. Since they also nerfed the rof so mang doesnt shoot from the horse head anymore 11

this wouldnt be the forums if things like this didnt happen

so you’re arguing for the sake of it? kipchaks have less range, are more fragile, and generally worse against all units, nevermind being worse against all other siege besides rams

so you’re comparing a unit that is worse at doing everything else to a mangudai? what is the point?

if anything the kipchak is a better indicator of how a unit should be balanced, unlike the mangudai, why dont samurai, jaguars, GC, huskarl etc (all UU that are meant to counter something specific) perform better than their generic counterparts? why is the mangudai allowed to be the exception? GC have less range, huskarls are expensive with lower attack, samurai are just expensive. mangudai? cost effectively better in almost every way

being less OP than it used to be, doesnt mean it isnt still OP. nevermind you need to consider how much more rewarding micro is in DE compared to previously, making micro intensive units like mangudai, actually even better. add the current poor (melee) pathing to the mix and mangudai become even better

i cant remember who recommended it, but someone explained a clever way for trebs to take less damage from mangudai, thats the least that should happen, but a general siege nerf should happen preferably

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This one’s a bit outdated, but I don’t think there have really been many changes to the units since then:


Then give back the 2 base PA to Leiciai too XD

Have you even played TGs where Mongols get to Imperial and go to Elite Mangudai, tell me what other unit can be close to do 1v2, because Mangudai ROF and attack are extremely strong.

Dude, Mangudai when moved at 1.45 was just beyond silly, because cavalry couldn’t even touch them when, even heavy camels.
Mangudai never needed to be straight up better than Mongol heavy cavalry archer, now they are fine, Camels at least can reach them.


I agree, Unique Units should be strong, otherwise they wouldn’t be Unique!

This is why I’m proposing Kamayuks to get 7 range (range upgradable through Blacksmith).



You could use argument to buff justify buffs to literally any UU. Getting a fully upgraded UU shouldn’t make you unstoppable. What is it about Mongols design that justify giving them an op unit while other civs are stuck with UU that rarely get used because they are either too situational or just bad.

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So here’s an idea. Give Mangudai all their unnerfed stats and make them use 1.5 (possibly 2) pop slots.

Couldn’t agree more, but I would like to see other UUs adjusted instead of the Mangudai nerfed.

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Mangudai doesn’t need more nerfs since speed nerf.
Better nerf Plumed Archer and Chu Ko Nu (OP UUs for the cost and belonging to OP civs).

Or Jannissaries/Organ Guns/Conquistadors in castle age (too dominant here) and Obuch (too strong in Imperial age).

I don’t agree with nerfs to any of the UUs you mentioned, excet arguably for the Chu-Ko-Nu (questionable since they are pretty hard countered by Onagers)

I would much rather see nerfs to Ghulam and buffs to other UUs, particularly Samurai which are never ever eeeever seen.

Then maybe you never played vs that UUs in the moments where are OP:

  • Jannisaries: In castle age they have 8 range and 17 attack, can be created 20% faster thanks to team bonus, and 25% more HP, one reason why Turks are OP on arena is just because Jannisaries are too good in early castle age, drop a castle, train 5-10 jannisaries and also add a siege worskhop or monastery to add mangonels and monks, you just kill everything, while the opponent just struggle to counter them because you need a major number of units, for instance xbows need both fletching + bodkin to be even fair, because in equal number before ballistics jannisaries win vs xbows (lol only briton ones win). Turks the follow that to fast imperial and is over.

  • Conquistador: In castle age, especially on nomad, they are way hard to deal often because Spanish got to that soon due to the faster building bonus, they have too good stats and you don’t need major investments. Conqs, alongside Spanish building bonus, is the reason why Spanish is too OP on Nomad.

  • Organ Gun: Arena, Double castle Organ gun, just as broken as the old double castle arambai and war wagon, and you lack a trash counter to face that, and if you don’t have redemption…

  • Obuch: The cost 55f and 20g, train fast and have quite strong stats in Imperial (95 HP and 5/6, plus the attack that reduced armor), backed by Poles unmatched economy, they feel just a better version of the Champion in almost all aspects.

  • Chu Ko Nu: high attack, cheap gold cost, able to destroy rams, better HP than arbalest, insane UU to an Insane civ.

  • Plumed Archer: three advantages over arbalest for a relatively low cost (Better HP, speed and pierce armor, in fact they can survive one onager hit, something that Genoese crossbows or Rattan archers can’t achieve, they are just hard to deal in Imperial, and Mayans are overall too strong for arabia, map that overly benefit plumed archer.

I want this to be a thing if just to see the sheer chaos it would cause.


I have, plenty of times tbh, I still don’t think they are OP.

OP for me is something that has little to no counter and forces you to bruteforce through it with either a massive number advantage or an insane cost-ineffective army. Only the Mangudai has that effect in my opinion, tven the Ghulam that I mentioned earlier are not as strong as Mangudai, they just fit the civ perfectly and aren’t countered by Infantry like Eagles.

Don’t get me wrong: Spanish Conqs are strong but they are pretty much all the civ has. No military bonuses until Imp, no eco bonuses, useless team bonus for 1v1 (which is mostly what I play) and no crossbow play makes them a one-trick pony civ. They are certainly very strong on Nomad, but not anywhere else, and Malians are better there anyways since they have more options and are extremely versatile.

Meh, if only Turks had anything else going for them I would agree, but their Janissary play is so ridiculously all in it isn’t even worth mentioning. I don’t play Arena that much because I hate closed maps, so that may be a personal bias, but in open maps Turks are not the best and Janissary even less so. They aren’t even that strong on all closed maps either, its pretty much only Arena and Amazon Tunnel.

They are so immobile that unless you are fully walled your economy will take a big hit from Knight raids in the back. Sure they are strong, but they can be taken down by Mangonels and Knights and as with all slow units, they can just be ignored. They aren’t a big threat to buildings so they can’t force fights on their own, you have to invest into Siege and banking Siege+OG are expensive even for the Portuguese. Oh and if you are inexplicably forced to fight the OG, you can use Rams to soak up fire.

On the fence about this one, I need to play more vs Obuch players. Most of my encounters vs Poles are just Scouts into Archers or FC Knight play, it is rare to see Obuchs at all, but they still die to Archers and Hand Cannoneers, are relative ineffective in small amounts and require Castles to be massed so probably not broken, but certainly decent.

I agree that the Chinese is strong and therefore the Chu-Ko-Nu is strong, but that is mostly the civ than the UU. Chinese is so powerful overall they don’t even need the bloody Chu-Ko-Nu hahaha

Again on the fence here, they are a very good unit specially because they aren’t as vulnerable to Onagers but Mayans go for archers most of the time since its much easier to transition and certainly easier to mass. Plumes are definitely strong and CERTAINLY ANNOYING (I hate this unit), but Broken? Eh, I’m not certain. They are basically a much weaker Mangudai that does not get bonus vs Siege, I would still prefer to play vs Plumes over Mangudai anytime. I think its another case where a powerful UU is given to an insane civ, Mayans in this case.

There is a recurring problem with UUs that is the Castle requirement, which I think its one of the reasons why most UUs are rarely seen unless they are ridiculously powerful. Only ones I’m on the fence about is Obuch and Plumes (probably biased vs Plumes since I hate them), but the others are faaaar away from being OP, although they are certainly strong.

I would argue that UUs should be strong or at least have some niche uses, since the massive Castle requirement adds a huge paywall before you can mass them, specially in open maps where stone can be contested and you are usually required to play Feudal a little bit.