-first of all do devs / community managers read things in this sub forum (IV - Discussions)? a gesture would be nice
Camel Riders, they are too expensive with not so much utility aside from anti cavalry due their low base damage, they are barely used
i have 2 suggestions: perhaps a small boost to their base damage + movement speed would be a nice start (they are expensive after all)
-Abbasid dynasty is considered “Anti Cavalry” Civilization, yet they only have spearman for that in fuedal age while french & rus can just have knights
why not allow them to have early camel riders that can pressure them? since experienced player would just make hes knights go around your spearman and kill your vils so not so much Anti cavalry in age 2
anyway that my feedback on how to improve this civilization unique unit, to encourage people to use them more
Have a good day
I don’t think its a buff, camel rider are pretty much usless in fight and they have camel archer in age 2 which are better overall. Morevore, cavalery is not an issu for the abassyd.
Both camel units feel too expensive and quite useless right now.
While they can turn a fight if used as support unit, on their own they are not really good (except you mass camel archers with all updates, but that still is quite a bad choice if you face siege).
And since camels by itself are a unit no one seriously will want to build, aaaaall those updates to add more armor, more speed to camels are kinda useless too.
But many unique units got this issue, that they do not perform too well compared to the basic units. RUS Cav Archers seem to be the most useful units out of all unique ones (letting alone longbow, since I do not count them as unique unit).
About Camels, I would expect camel archers to be a heavy counter vs mounted archers and camels, in my understanding, should be a heavy counter to cav, both is not the case, camel archers are decent as a counter but way to expensive to be used for that, camels are super bad as a unit and should never be used except of 2-3 units as support.
I feel Camel archer bonus damage vs mounted units need to be higher, camel rider base damage needs to be twice as high with only 2/3 the current bonus damage (so overall a buff).
I want cavalry to doge camels like they doge spear and not to just engage them since they still win the fight vs them.
@SavageEmpire566 i heard in the stream devs talking about looking into camels, maybe pass this feedback to them
abbasid are not sitting in a great spot at the moment
In theory we’ll see everything eventually, but we simply don’t have time to comment on everything. There’s a lot of lurking. You’d be surprised how much a dev comment can sway a conversation, so we tend to stay out of it.
Camel archers do bonus damage vs spears not cav. Camel riders already do 27 damage to cav in castle age and move/attack faster than spears. The big issue with the units imo is they are quite niche with their long training time and high cost. Camel riders are actually a good answer to knights as they trade very effectively and are among the tankiest units in the game. (Despite no base armor they have 40-50 more hp than knights)
thats sweet to hear, i know devs life is busy, especially post launch
wish you guys best of luck
Camel Riders are a bad answer vs knights.
Their training time is too high, their base damage is so low that they can not fight anything except knights which makes them a unit one does not want to use.
They need quite some buff like I mentioned, double their base attack and keep 2/3 of their bonus attack.
There is basically no reason a player would not engage them with knights since it is such a close fight while they should obliterate cav since that is their role.
And yes, I know camel archers do bonus vs spear, but imho that role is a little unsatisfying. For how expensive they are and for how long it takes them to train I think they would deserve additional bonus damage against mounted archers, making them a counter to mangundai and rus cav archers while getting heavily countered by archers.
I would even switch out the bonus damage, remove bonus vs spear and make it bonus vs mounted archers only. Make camels the fear of mounted units but don’t give them bonus vs unmounted. I would argue that they don’t need that, they are faster then spear and they are ranged, they are a counter by design already.
And the bonus aura camels give, lets talk about that:
+1 armor for infantry
So you need to pair a mobile unit with slow infantry. So you could pair it with man at arms, the whole combination would get obliterated by crossbow. So if you combine it with spear on the other hand they would get obliterated by archers only.
As you can see, no matter with what you combine camel archers, 1 unit type counters that combination which is why I don’t see such a use of that bonus (it would only make sense in something like spear vs cav or maa vs maa (but then other maa like HRE or english are just waaaaaaay better making your bonus a joke).
Even camel riders get countered by archers or crossbow (archers should be just fine since camel riders do such low base damage).
The fact alone that those units get countered so easily and got such a low base damage it feels like going for knights is always the better choice.
This is just mathematically untrue.
Camel Riders are great against Knights. One thing that you did not consider is their Camel Unease aura. Yes, they get the +1 Armor through tech, but they also have a natural aura which causes Horse Cavalry to deal 20% less damage to surrounding units.
So…let’s break it down. An Elite Knight has 270 Health, 5 Armor and deals 29 damage. An Elite Camel Rider has 320 Health, no Armor (without tech) and deals 10+20 damage vs. Cavalry. Both units cost 240 resources, so a 1:1 ratio makes the math easy, since we don’t have to account for equal costs.
The Knight will do 21.75 damage per hit, after Camel Unease, which means that it will take the Knight 15~ hits to take out the Camel Rider. The Camel Rider will do 25 damage per hit, after deducting for the Knight’s armor, which means that the Camel Rider will take out the Knight in 11~ hits. On top of this, the Camel Rider has a faster attack speed (1.00 vs. 1.38) and more range (0.42 vs 0.29). So, they will be able to get their hits in sooner and faster.
Even if we account for the Knight’s charge attack, which would deal 32 damage after Camel Unease, it would still take the Knight 13 additional hits with their sword to take out the camel. So, in equal numbers, the Camel Rider will win against Cavalry every time.
The issue is not if camels win in a pure knight vs camel fight,
Against any mixed army, like archers + knights or crossbow and knights they performe worse since they got no armor vs 4/4 armor and bad base damage against everything except cav.
Having in mind that there is almost no difference (cav + charge = 13 hits, camel = 11 hits) it is just not enough to make it worth using them. And what you missed in your calculations, I am quite sure 8 knigts + 2 camels would perform better then 10 camels vs cav which, by itself is strange already.
And if you use them as support unit only, would you really get camel updates ? Or other quesiton, do you need those camel updates if you can just utilize the damage reduction buff and use cav instead ?
If you are getting attacked with a mixed army, then you should also counter with a mixed army. The devs have said, many times over, that one of the primary design philosophies is to encourage mixed comp armies, as opposed to massing a single unit. If you are going against a mixed comp army with a single unit, in most cases, you are going to have a bad time.
This is the difference between Light and Heavy units. Additionally, they have 50 more Health than a Knight, which makes up for their lack of Armor AND they can gain quite a bit of Armor with upgrades, on top of that.
You keep saying that they have “bad base damage”, but their base damage is 9 DPS, which is on par or greater than most units in the game. That is more than both Mangudai and Horse Archers (more than 61% higher DPS than Horse Archers, fyi). They have the third highest (out of 10), non-gunpowder ranged DPS in the game. They do not, in any way, have “bad damage”.
That difference is SIGNIFICANT. Especially when you factor in that they attack much faster than a Knight, as I noted, which means that they are getting those 11 hits in a lot sooner than the Knight is. With that “almost no difference”, the Camel Rider is walking away with almost half its Health remaining, after it has taken out the Knight.
Factually incorrect. This assumption doesn’t even make sense. If they overpower Knights and they trade evenly with themselves…why would that composition win in any situation? They would shred through the Knights and then the remaining would clean up whatever camels were left. Camel Unease does nothing for the Knights, because it only works against HORSE mounted cavalry. So, in that comp, every Knight that you add is putting you further at a disadvantage against a pure Camel army.
Talking about camel riders here not camel archers. Camel archers might have their niche for which one might want to use them
Ofcourse I would also use mixed units as army. Now what would be a good mix with camels, should be obviously archers.
Alright, lets assume your opponent got archers + cav and you got archer + camels I am very sure that his knights + archers will win with the same resources spent if you got something like 7 knights + 20 archers vs 7 camels + 20 archers.
Will try it out.
Not sure where you got that information from ?
Both types of Camels provide the Camel Unease aura, which reduces the damage of nearby cavalry by 20%.
It makes a lot of sense if I assume that 8+2 knights/camels are better then 10 camels, The 20% damage reduction helps in fighting off the enemy knights and your remaining knights are way stronger against all remaining units then camels would be.
And we are talking about units which cost as much as knights, which train as long as knights and which cost a substantial amount of gold, comparing them to other light units makes no sense, you need to compare their dps to other heavy cav, that is the only thing which makes sense.
It is…literally written in-game, dude.
What enemy Knights? You said 8+2 knights/camels vs. 10 Camels. The 10 Camel army has zero (0) Knights and Camel Unease does nothing for those Knights against Camels.
They are not heavy cavalry. They are Light Ranged Cavalry…so, you compare them to other Light Ranged units.
But, either way…it is painfully clear that you are just pulling a bunch of theoretical arguments out of thin air, without actually testing or verifying your arguments in any way. So…I’m kind of done with the debate here. My initial point was contesting your claim that “Camel Riders are a bad answer vs. Knights” anything else has absolutely no relevance to that initial point. That point being, that they are a hard counter to Knights. You are free to hold on to the opinion that they don’t counter Knights, if you want…but, again…that opinion is mathematically false.
I do not say that they do not counter knights, but they counter them only by a margin and they are bad against everything else because of their low base damage.
And as we both agreed, you won’t play against knights only. So having 1 or 2 as support for the aura but otherwise having knights feels just way better then having camels only. And once you agree on that, I guess we can also both agree that you won’t spend that many resources on upgrades for a support unit which does not make much of an impact on the fight itself except of its aura.
And obviously that should have meant 8/2 knights/camels vs knights not vs camels. Typo.
You literally did.
To which you responded:
So, yeah. You did say that they do not counter knights and that is what I was contesting and that’s the last I’ll say on it. GLHF.
You took 1 sentence out of context. Congrats.
Why even bother replying then.