The Tatars civ was classified as cavalry archers civ, but when we compare it with other cav archers civs we find they don’t have that much bonuses for their cav archers except the free thumb ring because the parthian tactic is imperial tech so it is not useful that much.
I am talking about the Tatars cav arch comparing with other cav arch civs. The 25% hill bonus is not that much because not all the time you have a hill to fight on it!!! And the free thumb is weaker than 20% fire for the mongols and not that much comparing to 10% disscount for the huns in the castle or 10% more speed for the cumans. I am talking about bonuses that will be immediately appeared once you reached the castle age and once the orher cav arch civs have researched the thumb ring or the parthian tactic what the specail for the Tatars except the silk armor?! I am talking about features here but not about free or not free techs.
so i have this suggestion:
-cavalry archers have 25% hp or cost -15%
-cavarly archers training time 20% faster
-Remove the free parthian tactic and make it with cost.
-Steppe lancers for all their civs must be cheaper (60 food, 35 gold).
-Flamming camel can be training without the unique tech in the imperial age.
I think if this has been done for the Tatars it will be good like other cav archers civs, like Mongols, Cumans, Huns.
I would rather have Parthian Tactics since is an extra +2 Pierce Armour for free, rather than get +25% hitpoints, which would be much less helpful againts Skirmishers, the unit that makes sure non-UU Cav Archers have trouble staying relevant.
Parthian tactic is an imperial tech, so it is only good for late game, but in the castle age the +25% hp is way better than free parthian tactic in imperial!!! I think you misunderstood, i am not talking about removing it completely from the tech tree for the Tatars i am talikng about not making it free and put +25% hp for cav archers in the castle age instead
Tatars do not even need any buffs.
+25%HP for a Gold unit, is always less useful than +2 PA anyway, and Cav Archers cost no Food, so you should have it easy going for Fast Imp when massing Cav Archers.
Not to mention that, accoring to the data, Tatars already have a great Castle Age, specially early Castle (20-30 minutes length game), likely due to Free Thumb Ring, which means Mass Crossbows/Cav Archers on steroids.
You misunderstood again, i just want to ask you what is the unique thing for the Tatars cav archers in the castle age comparing to other cav archers civs?! I am here in comparison for the cav archers not the civ in general!!! The mongols cav archers fire 20% faster in the castle and this is better and stronger than free thumb for the Tatars cav archers, the Cumans have 10% speed in the castle and 50% faster training tech, the Huns have 10% disscount for the cav archers in the castle, so what the Tatars have then?!! Only free thumb!!! They need more for their cav archers comparing to other cav arch civs.
Hill Bonus + Silk Armour + free techs. Actually all very useful for cav archers, when you now how to play them.
+25% health i actually don’t care about health for my cav archers i mean… at all.
You just don’t want to take damage with cav archers, therefore health is just… nice to have, but not relevant.
+25 % health is actually as useful as about 5 % discount. Almost nothing.
But your cost reduction to steppe lancers would make them straight OP again. In reasonable amount and good micro there would be literally no counter except the kamayu, genoese Crossbowman and Mameluke, which all are hard to mass unique units. You would instantly have 100 % pick or ban on these 3 civs in pro and free win wo everybody who gets one through.
I don’t think you have much experience in the game, because your “balance” suggestions are far away from balancing, they would disbalance the game or have almost no impact.
Also this is your second topic to almost the same theme. Cav archer civs are very special and you need a lot of experience to make them work. You see them actually quite often in pro play, they are not underpowered, just hard to master.
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Free Thumb Ring, which is not only an expensive upgrade for the Castle Age, but also one of the better upgrades for Archers in general.
By having it, it ensure that Tatars spend almost no Food in their Cav Archer Rush, which means they have a smoother transition to Imperial Age.
That is a very good bonus.
In the Imperial Age, not only do they get Parthian Tactics for Free (huge for survivability), but also get an UT which directly makes them even tankier, specially against their natural counters (Ranged units).
Let us also not forget the Hill bonus, which while situational, has the capacity to be busted OP.
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No bro you misunderstood, i am not talking that the cav archers are weak, i am talking about the Tatars cav arch comparing with other cav arch civs. The 25% hill bonus is not that much because not all the time you have a hill to fight on it!!! And the free thumb is weaker than 20% fire for the mongols and not that much comparing to 10% disscount for the huns in the castle or 10% more speed for the cumans. I am talking about bonuses that will be immediately appeared once you reached the castle age.
The 25% hill bonus is not that much because not all the time you have a hill to fight on it!!! And the free thumb is weaker than 20% fire for the mongols and not that much comparing to 10% disscount for the huns in the castle or 10% more speed for the cumans. I am talking about bonuses that will be immediately appeared once you reached the castle age.
It is situational, but also really strong when it applies.
You also managed to not engage in any of my other, previous arguments.
Tatars need nothing, they are fine, even have a Castle Age Cavalier UU.
Free Thumb Ring, it is HUGE.
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I know bro it is good, but once the others cav arch civs researched it then what the Tatars have?! If the cumans researched it their cav arch will have more 10% free speed though and don’t forget the +50% faster training time unique tech, when the mongols researched the thumb ring+20% faster cav archers shot it will be waaay better, and the huns have 10% disscount on their cav arch in the castle
+300 Food and 250 Wood in the bank, which means MORE Cav Archers, and faster Imperial, or essentially Free Fletching and Bodkin Arrow.
Some civ Bonii are meant to make sure you out-tech your opponent, not have better units than them.
Imp Age Tatars HCA beat Mongols and Huns HCA, by virtue of being FU and having a related UT.
Mongols never go for Cav Archers, and Huns transition into Paladins in Imp, because no matter how many bonii they have, they cannot compete with ESkirms in the Imperial Age, since they both lack Ring Archer Armour, which Tatars have.
Tatars do a better Mass Cav Archers Rush than Mongols or Huns do.
But they miss Bracer, which makes them essentially useless. That +1 Range means a lot.
Well you have a good points here i agree with you but this still not make the Tatars’s cav archers unique compare to other cav arch civs. They are almost normal to any cav arch except the silk armour tech, and here we start from the beginning since i am talking about special features not free or not free techs.
They do not need to be unique, they are FU with 2 free upgrades and an UT, which is already more than good enough.
Which is even more than French Paladins have, just to say.
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To be honest, I wish Franks had Free Scale Barding or Free Husbandry.
The Paladin is their only good unit, and is already very expensive to upgrade into.
The stats show that it would be OP, though.
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What i actually would like to see is a light cavalry archer tech in feudal age, which needs some time like 2 minutes or so, but not so much ressources.
As a raiding unit they can’t use their full potential in castle age, so the opportunity to pay a bit to dish a feudal version out a bit earlier would be nice, not only for cav archer civs.
They still have a low win rate. If took 25% less damage when fighting below on hills, that would help them to be better overall and still be unique.
They have almost a 45% winrate, which means they are not in a bad state at all.
Their play rate in 1v1 ara in worrying tbh…
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