[Suggestion] Nerf forward castles

[IndraAllian2]

Well ranked is do or die anyway so Im not talkig about that. This game CAN be played in so many ways and ranked games is only one of them.

[MatCauthon3]

@MrCrispyButt

I know they aren’t going to disallow forward buildings, like they did in AOE3. My suggestion is to make it harder to just drop one with no supporting units.

It’s already hard to drop without supporting units, archers alone can pick off the villagers.

@MrCrispyButt

For example by reducing the foundation armor on buildings, as Viper himself suggests, so that your villagers could take down a forward castle being constructed more easily, despite quick walls, etc.

or you could just invest into army. i have nothing against nerfing foundation armor, but not for stuff like this, and viper isn’t saying to nerf it for this reason either. viper wants to nerf foundation armor because quick walling is broken.

@MrCrispyButt

The suggestion that it only happens to 600 ELO players is just plain incorrect, I am not 600 ELO, and as I’ve said multiple times, you can see it in pro games as well.

yes and when pros drop forward castles they are losing out economically elsewhere to do so, and they realize that what they are doing could change the course of the game one way or another, either swinging it in their favor, or going against them if its denied. it is a HUGE INVESTMENT to drop a forward castle. ESPECIALLY if it’s an in your face one.

@MrCrispyButt

I am merely reporting the facts, not opinions, of what I see in my games online. Lots of people are castle dropping. Its a fact.

is it a fact though? for one i don’t see this happening much, and i very rarely see forward castles completely destroying entire economies. they might deny a resource or two but that is all, and the opponent has to shift to a different wood line or gold, but given the cost into dropping a castle, that is completely acceptable.

@MrCrispyButt

They are doing it because presumably it is very effective, otherwise it wouldn’t be so common.

it isn’t all that common though. when i see forward castles most the time they aren’t the “in your face in your base” type you are talking about. they are situated closer to the enemy base to more readily reinforce the army and provide a good fall back position, but rarely wrecking entire economies.

[WoodsierCorn696]

@MrCrispyButt

The suggestion that it only happens to 600 ELO players is just plain incorrect, I am not 600 ELO, and as I’ve said multiple times, you can see it in pro games as well. I am merely reporting the facts, not opinions, of what I see in my games online. Lots of people are castle dropping. Its a fact. They are doing it because presumably it is very effective, otherwise it wouldn’t be so common.

I see other facts. I can castle dropped a lot top, but is almost never game ending. If it is game ending, it is because i deny the Castle and enemy GG. I win most games against Castle droppers. Except if i already lost the game before they dropped a castle.

[Equalizer938341]

Yeah i saw the viper did a krepost rush with 2000 player and the viper himself said that this is sick and need something to do about. Also i saw Tatoh or Daut did a castles drop rush to MBL and Daut or Tatoh was spanish and he completely destroyed MBL, he build more than 3 castles in MBL base. I think they only should make some changes about those civs bonuses in buildings and castles nothing else, so this includes spanish, bulgarians and franks.

[MatCauthon3]

@Equalizer938341

Yeah i saw the viper did a krepost rush with 2000 player and the viper himself said that this is sick and need something to do about.

source please.

@Equalizer938341

Also i saw Tatoh or Daut did a castles drop rush to MBL and Daut or Tatoh was spanish and he completely destroyed MBL

spanish always rush a castle because conqs is the best strat in castle age. this is nothing new. it has little to do with the castle itself.

@Equalizer938341

he build more than 3 castles in MBL base. I think they only should make some changes about those civs bonuses in buildings and castles nothing else, so this includes spanish, bulgarians and franks.

or you can learn how to counter a forward castle, seeing as its not really hard and more often then not your ahead of your enemy economically when they use the strategy.

[Equalizer938341]

@MatCauthon3

source please.

Go and watch “the meta” on viper channel on youtube or write on youtube “the viper krepost rush”.

@MatCauthon3

or you can learn how to counter a forward castle, seeing as its not really hard and more often then not your ahead of your enemy economically when they use the strategy.

Tell this to MBL if you see yourself better than him

[MatCauthon3]

@Equalizer938341

Go and watch “the meta” on viper channel on youtube.

that video is 10 months old and nothing has been done to counter krepost rushes. clearly pros have figured it out, because viper hasn’t brought it up since.

@Equalizer938341

Tell this to MBL if you see yourself better than him

everyone can make mistakes, even viper makes them. doesn’t mean countering a forward castle is hard. scouting = knowledge. knowledge = power. RTSes by nature are a game of how much you know. if i don’t scout my opponents scout rush and fail to respond to it, are scout rushes op and need nerfs? if my opponent goes skirms and i’m building archers, does that mean skirms are op and need to be nerfed?

do you see pros clamoring to nerf op castle drops? is MBL clamoring to nerf them?
no? then clearly MBL and pros recognize that such builds have counter play and that he made mistakes.

[Equalizer938341]

I even don’t care and i said that i don’t see any problem with the castles drop since it is already a castle age rush so you must have time to deal with it!!! I am saying that some bonuses need to change.

[MatCauthon3]

@Equalizer938341

I am saying that some bonuses need to change.

are those civs OP? the strongest civ you listed is Franks, and even they don’t see as much tournament usage as the likes of Mayans, Britons, Vikings, etc.

[Equalizer938341]

Not OP yeah, you can deal with it, but i will be a liar if i said it is BALANCED!!! it is not OP but it is also not balanced and you must know the difference.

[MatCauthon3]

@Equalizer938341

, but i will be a liar if i said it is BALANCED!!!

if it wasn’t balanced, why hasn’t it been nerfed in the god knows how many years its been in the game?
spanish - 20.
franks as is? 7 or so?

perfect 100% balance will never happen. too many civs to make that happen.
how would you balance goths against archer civs?
Lithuanians against the likes of Franks, Teutons, Slavs, and Bulgarians?
Britons against civs with strong siege?

[Equalizer938341]

And who told you that the devs have fixed all the problems in the game!!! There still many things to deal with it and many suggestions to be done

[MatCauthon3]

@Equalizer938341

And who told you that the devs have fixed all the problems in the game!!! There still many things to deal with it and many suggestions to be done

they’ve literally had 20 years to nerf Spanish, if it was an issue it would have been done by now.
Franks have existed as is for roughly 7 years.
Bulgarians have largely received buffs, not nerfs.
again.

@MatCauthon3

perfect 100% balance will never happen. too many civs to make that happen.
how would you balance goths against archer civs?
Lithuanians against the likes of Franks, Teutons, Slavs, and Bulgarians?
Britons against civs with strong siege?

Yeah, they are still making changes, but if the likes of these were an issue, they would be getting the Khmer treatment. but they aren’t.

[Equalizer938341]

Yeah i know that the interesting an AOE 2 is in general they have a good balance and every civ has it’s features and this is the fun in the game, i am not telling you that i want all the civs to be equal because this will make the game so boring, i just said somethings that i noticed about some civs bonuses nothing else even if it was about nerf or buff.

[MatCauthon3]

@Equalizer938341

i just said somethings that i noticed about some civs bonuses nothing else even if it was about nerf or buff.

you noticing something doesn’t mean anything at all, just because you think something is imbalanced doesn’t mean that is the case. The viper has literally won with just about every composition under the sun and can make anything look strong. does that mean everything needs nerfing? absolutely not. he is the best player in the world, and i’d be shocked if they nerfed everything he made look stupid strong.

i’ve watched pros lose because they failed to scout something and dieing to it. doesn’t make that build strong.
i’ve watched pros lose because they failed to micro and lost dozens of units on the cheap.
i’ve watched pros lose because they got caught move commanding their units and the enemy picked them off.
none of that means stuff needs to be nerfed.

[JoJo9942]

@MatCauthon3

that video is 10 months old and nothing has been done to counter krepost rushes

actually krepost was nerfed in the december patch iirc. They were made smaller effectively nerfing the range

[RoomOfTheEvil]

@TougherTrack508

, as far as I could tell he had no eco upgrades and no good way to make military

He doesn’t need them if the castle goes up. You can attack his base but it is avoidable (as he is already castle age) and there are vills taking your resources

@TougherTrack508

(except to counter-tower)

Like always then?

@TougherTrack508

The only thing the first castle really gave him was a hole in the arena wall.

It blocked resources, that he took, and entrance, he could have positioned it somewhere else, that doesn’t matter much.

@CactusSteak2171

It also implies that while the enemy can take 2 ressources, it’s not going to be two of the same so your safe eco shouldn’t miss anything important.

That depends on the spawn. If you have unluck spawn he can block of your main resources.

@Nheltarion

I am complaining about IA because it is objectively bad.

Which doesn’t matter in this dicussion as the build isn’t about the AI

@Nheltarion

While having a weak eco and less resources which means that if both play it correctly the one doing the normal FC is up to imp faster and with a bunch of xbows out. Your castle gets trebbed down and the other player has army while if you use the food to go up as franks you won’t have any army.

He doesn’t have ‘less resources’, he have the exact he needs to have. As i already wrote, he can transfer some from stone and imp faster than he did here. Again with this, trebbed down when his Imp time was 24

@Nheltarion

It’s the second castle the one who is putting pressure on the ia, not the first. By himself that firat castle achieve absolutely nothing with the exception of letting him gather some gold from the opponent base

Do you realize that doesn’t matter for the build?

@Nheltarion

You should scout this easily. Keep yout scout active, such a fast up times means with franks means only a castle drop is coming (btw, it’s possible depending on the stone position to scout it even in dark age). If you don’t know how to properly use your scour that’s another thing, but you should be able to see it coming.

Nonsense, if this was the case any Tower rush would be easily avoidable, lol

@Nheltarion

Yes you can.

How? The castle gives you sight for almost the entirety of one side of the wall which mean you can go only from the other side. And you have frank scout to defend from monks, if the enemy produces any military, you can stop thinking going imp with this build and start producing military as well, moving stone to wood.

@Nheltarion

… you know that fast imp strats generally rely on pumping out some arbalest to push with, right?

which do nothing against a castle?

@Nheltarion

Towers easily go down against castle age siege. You need university and guard tower to defend it and he doesn’t have the eco for it

maybe vs rams but you need multiple mangonels and someone who repairs it to make the tower go down which means you are using resources for military and he can do the same with knights.

@Nheltarion

And that’s why i said that doing this against ia or a low skilled player doesn’t mean it’s viable.
It’s easy to scout, it’s even easy to expect some kind of ultra aggression build given the time he goes up. Use the scout well and, especially on a map like arena who has a lower area that need to be scouted, you’ll have no problem to spot it.

replied up

@Nheltarion

Are you going up really fast (25/26 pop)? Then, there’s a chance you’ll have some form of military out (archers or scout) that in a normal game are used to contest the relics: if that’s the case, use them

.and he can do the same, his build also had fast imp strategy
.walls behind castle? the problem is your resources, not your farm
.again with this second castle
.you can sell stone and vs franks with arbs and rams? Cavalier shreds them

[MatCauthon3]

@JoJo9942

@MatCauthon3

that video is 10 months old and nothing has been done to counter krepost rushes

actually krepost was nerfed in the december patch iirc. They were made smaller effectively nerfing the range

And nothing since. And yet the person I was talking to id bringing it up sfill like its still an issue

[Equalizer938341]

Then you can ask him about the saracen market that he said 100 times it is need to be nerfed. Especially the saracens civ was in the game from 20 years with their market bonus

[MatCauthon3]

And if the devs agree wuth him they will nerf it. But seeing as saracens are a civ that isn’t even remotely imbalanced I expect counter buffs will occur at the same time

Food for thought but viper lost with saracens easily shortly after saying that

Also, 100 times? Doubtful