[Suggestion--rework] 🐄 <Double Purpose Cattle of Europe> 🐑

Aztecs, Lakota and Haudenosaunee could also benefit from this. Although in the forum I have only considered primarily Europeans, the cattle should have a rework in general.

Furthermore, this would not be an opening strategy for European civilizations. It will be an economic option that depends on cards, something similar to when you decide to make an economic strategy based on fishing. The price of livestock could be increased, and if necessary, that of corrals as well. That is why I have also proposed the reinvestment mechanism, so that it is easier to balance and at the same time give it its own identity.

The British could be the exception. However, it is somewhat situational. You run a risk while making your investment profitable. I once saw a PRO player do this strategy, but it was in mongolia where you can collect a lot of water buffalo.

American civilizations could fatten cattle faster assuming they fatten them on corn. I think milking would not apply to them. They could earn 10 coins every time they slaughter a cow emulating the skins trade.

For the sheep they could generate wool (coins) without the need to reinvest and automatically in the farms.

The manure idea is very good. Perhaps the cows could boost crop production while they get fatter.

Although I have not found anything with historical sense that demonstrates the use of European cattle by Native American civilizations. But it could be easily solved by substituting the animals. I would like the advice of AnaWinters in this regard.

A survey regarding livestock:

Would you like variety of cattle breeds by civilization?

  • Yes, each one with advantages and disadvantages.
  • No, the traditional model is fine.
  • Yes, but only aesthetically. There is no need to add more complexity.

0 voters


In case the cattle were more viable, would you use it? Would you like it?

  • YES
  • NO

0 voters


Would you like cards, politicians and new technologies related to livestock?

  • YES.
  • NO.

0 voters

Holy ■■■■! Someone definitely did their research on cattle.

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only for new factions i think, i still think there are too many risks involved in touching the current factions.

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I get the feeling you don’t have much real life experience with cattle. The only practical difference between breeds is between dairy cattle and beef cattle. In a game about colonial warfare, this is a minor distinction and not worth the needless complexity.

The reason the euro civs don’t use cattle is because cows are gated behind cards and take a lot of APM to manage.

The first problem to solve is to make cattle accessible without needing to give up a card. I think the best way to implement that would be through buffing the Naturalist Politician.

image The Naturalist
Ships 2 Settlers and 2 semi-fattened Cows & enables training cows at the livestock pen

To give a reason to still send the Ranching card, some adjustments would be needed. The base cost of cows should be increased to at least 100 to make the Naturalist buff a little more minor. Next, the Ranching card should be buffed as follows:

image Ranching
Enables training cows at the livestock pen & -20% cost for all livestock (this keeps it the same for cows, but it now also buffs sheep). Possibly also deliver a couple of skinny cows.

The next step would be to give livestock a way to generate resources in a way that doesn’t require so much micromanagement. I think the best way to do this would be to have a card that enables livestock to be tasked to pens to be milked/sheared. The least intrusive way to do this would be to have them function like a Japanese shrine. This could be enabled through an Advanced Livestock Pen card.

Advanced Livestock Pen Advanced Livestock Pen
Livestock Pens are cheaper and stronger & Livestock Pens generate a small trickle of resources when fully fattened livestock are tasked to them

Cows, water buffalo, goats, etc. produce milk (pens generate food)
Sheep, llamas, yaks, etc. produce wool (pens generate coin)
Larger animals would contribute more to resource generation

European civs already have decent economies so this ability should definitely be locked behind a card so they have to exclude something else to get the benefit. The rate of resource generation should also be modest, and not as fast as the rate African cows generate. The number of Livestock Pens should also be limited to prevent this from being abused in treaty games. A build limit of ~5 would be a good start, and shipments like 7 Sheep + 1 Homestead Wagon or Advanced Livestock Pen could increase the build limit by 1 for each one sent.

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Of course there are risks in damaging the balance and I understand that. It is something that would have to be studied a little more thoroughly. But a game of strategy always has these kinds of risks when something new is implemented.

I’m not an expert, but I know what I’m talking about. Livestock is very diverse, they are usually very varied from each other. There are beef cattle, dairy cattle, and there are cattle that are intermediate between meat and milk.

But that’s not exactly where I go with the races. For example, cattle of Iberian origin are more adaptable to the tropics, and easier to feed, so it would be cheaper cattle and they would get fatter a little faster. It would give little milk, but would require less reinvestment.

However, it is just a very demanding proposal that I would love to see implemented, but I would be satisfied if it is implemented only as something aesthetic.

As I have mentioned, this strategy would require cards to be a viable economic option. Many things would have to be adjusted so that it eventually does not outperform the economies of other civilizations beyond what it should. I think reinvestment would help balance this mechanic.

This would be a good strategy on maps where hunting is scarce or where the map has stray cattle.

The problem I have with livestock is that it takes too many cards to fully optimise.

Stockyards, Ranching AND fulling mills.

How about something a bit more like this:

  • Cows and water buffalos are buildable by default in age 3 but only with a build limit of 10
  • Aztec get Llama’s instead of cows in age 3 with a build limit of 10
  • Ranching now grants +10 to build limit of cows and allows them to be trained in any age, llama ranching does the same for llamas (and aztec get llama ranching instead of ranching)…
  • The cost of cattle and sheep/goats are flipped.

Another thing that cpuld be added is allowing Hauds and lakato to sell livestock at the the coral, this could help with the lakato late game coin issue and the Haud wood issue. But i’m not totally behind this yet.

I agree that cows and sheep are present by default, but with a lower limit that can be increased.

Yamas for the Aztecs would also be out of place, but I think it could be left as it is today (cows and sheep).

For Lakota and Haudenosaunee they could play a new role. I think selling the cattle is a good idea, but it would make them very similar to the African ones. Someone proposed the idea of manure, I think this could be a bonus that cattle give to agriculture while they get fat, and once it gets worse the bonus increases a little more. It can be a good solution for pre-Columbian civilizations.

Yo preferiría algo mas simple, que el ganado cueste oro en lugar de alimento y mientras engorda produzca algo como por ejemplo Oro, Alimento o Exportación.

It could cost gold and food at the same time. The corrals would cost more wood. Many things would have to change to give balance and utility at the same time.

Indian sacred cows could generate wood with the ‘herding’ card. Its limit could be increased to compensate in case the European cattle have more viability. Also export if it makes sense in any way.

For Japan I do not know if they need any compensation because they are a very strong end-game civilization, but if it were the case, they could increase the income of the sanctuaries for domestic animals.

For China, maybe some card that allows to receive water buffalo for each shipment, and / or when building a town. Villages could be configured to generate a very small amount of exports or food.

They are just ideas that occur to me to compensate other civilizations in some way. There could be many more ways with better historical argument.

My thinking was that while the late game or treaty livestock economy is good for europeans/china , it does take time and is a little impractical to get started for non-treaty games (i still use them, but whatever).
Raising the floor while keeping the ceiling the same by loosening the restrictions on cattle(by enabling them by default in small numbers in age 3.

Haudenosaunee and Lakota do have problems with late game economies for wood and coin respectively, and co-incidentally they are the only native american civs with corals.

I also usually use it in the treatise and it is a good source if you have the right cards. But it would be nice if it were also useful even without cards, but not as much as the Africans are.

Increase the possible limit as age?

What I mean is the ability to create 10 cows in the fortress age without any cards or politicians.

It can remain the same with 20 cows in any age with the ranching card.

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Maybe they could sell the cattle when they are allied with a native tribe, as a barter. This would make them different from African civilizations.

We started with the possibility of producing 10 cows + 15 sheep, and the card would increase that limit by 100%.


“Animals and their ‘products’—in particular milk, leather, fur, bone, wool, and silk—were and remain constitutive of national identity and imperial power. They operate as tools of domination to control territories, humans, animals, and ecosystems. Animal colonialism also served as a pretext for conquest itself: as the imported cattle multiplied, more grazing land was needed, justifying further expansions. According to colonists, farming established legitimate legal entitlements to the land, which was conceptualised as a res nullius (empty thing) remaining common property until put to use. This was the Lockean idea that men acquired civil rights when they appropriated tracts of lands to themselves and used them productively. As Virginia DeJohn Anderson has shown about North America,4 by making agriculture the sole measure of use, colonists denied native peoples of New England and Virginia such as the Algonquians, Patawomecks, Powhatans, and Wampanoags any claim to the hunting lands essential to their way of life (and of course they did farm, but very differently from Europeans—using smaller, unfenced parcels and growing other varieties of crops among other differences.)”


Could the Lakota and Haudenosaune natives replace cows and sheep with buffalo and deer?
It does not appear to me that they have used cattle. I can’t find a source.


I cannot find a clear explanation of the use of cattle by the Aztecs, Haudenosaunee or Lakota, but what is certain is that cattle of all kinds were everywhere in the American continent. Perhaps the cattle for these civilizations (except Aztecs maybe) can be used in another way as tallow and skin, in addition to meat.

https://www.ncpedia.org/anchor/columbian-exchange


Another way that Native Americans could get more out of cattle is with an enhancement called smoking. This would translate into a cap of + 10-20% (maybe?) Of meat that the animals would give, but the fattening time would be the same as in a normal cap.

They could also use them as work animals in agriculture, which means that they could increase the production of the crops while they get fatter.

Did the Lakota use cattle? I found this on academic google:


Regarding the use of races, I think that the Spanish could have their own variety of cattle. They were pioneers in bringing cattle to the new world and it was cattle fit for the tropics. They could resivir cows with each dispatch of the metropolis by advancing with a certain politician or using a certain card.

They could trade it with the natives in exchange for experience or coins.

Mexico, another civilization that intends to make livestock farming viable.

(They talk about it from minute 1:39)

By appearing this building (farm) will generate free cows and its process will be accelerated if there are villagers working in it.

Imagine that you build farms and configure it to generate cows automatically. By the time the hunt is over, it is inaccessible or it is very risky to go towards it, the farm will have generated some animals that will replace the hunt.

To be frank I was a bit disappointed that it was Mexico, but seeing its mechanics and artistic style I am emotional.

Since they are making cattle actually have a utility for the new civilizations that are emerging, I would like it to be the same for the civilizations that came out before the African DLC.


Now that the new arriving civilizations have an efficient livestock utility. Don’t you think it’s time for other civilizations to be able to use it efficiently too?

Africans with an upgrade can replace their sold cows with a calf. Mexicans can generate free cows. I think my proposal doesn’t sound so crazy anymore now.

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What about add pigs?

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En tu caso yo diría que estas entre la genialidad y la locura :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Es una buena opción pero hagámosla mas inmersiva, ¿Qué tal una carta de la metrópoli que habilite la creación automática de ovejas en el corral y mientras mas animales estén engordando en el corral mas rápido se crean las ovejas?

I thought about that and was going to propose it until I saw that Mexico aria this. He was going to propose it for the Portuguese civilization, which I think was his livestock for the consumption of meat.

I think I have to think of something more unique.

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Todas tus propuestas son únicas, en mi humilde opinión. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Con esta mecánica los corrales de las civilizaciones europeas podrían ser como versiones primitivas de la haciendas mexicanas

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