Suggestions for balance (Feb 23)

Here are propositions for balance. Some address key issues of the game, while some others are details or fun, as they have an extremely limited impact. The diversity of games and civilisations is also taken into account.

General:

In the late game, a number of civilisations lack a proper counter to elephants. Sure, these are neither the most common, nor the cheapest to afford, but in some cases, particularly team games, they can be game changers. In the Imperial Age, besides Unique Units, they can only be countered by halberdiers, barring other elephants. To a degree, the mangonel line can work, but it is very difficult to reach and to micro. Monks present the same micromanagement issue in Imp. So I think they should be a bit harder countered by a standard, Imperial gold unit:

  • Heavy Scorpion: +6 against elephant units (to +14).

This moreover gives this rarely seen unit a bit more of a reason to be.

  • Let all American civs’ Imperial UT affect the Xolotl warrior too. This is simply for quirk and fun, and has no effect on balance.

  • Armoured Elephants: Update 77209 nerf was very good, although I would have preferred them to keep their HP and lose 1 melee armour.

  • Steppe Lancers : have received some more love lately, but mostly for the Mongols, in Castle Age. The Elite upgrade is too weak for what it yields, and there is no real reason to tech into it. So: +1/+1 armour to Elite Steppe Lancer (to 1/2, same as a Winged Hussar).

  • Gold and Stone Mining / Gold and Stone Shaft Mining: -25f / -100f, to cost (75f,75w) / (100f/150w). This would put them on par with double bit-axe, bow saw and the farming upgrades in terms of total resources. The Shaft Mining upgrades, notably, are rarely researched, and especially less so for stone. This could change balance for a number of civilisations, but also make the game a little bit faster and gold/stone intensive.

Civilisations:

Aztecs:

  • Jaguar warrior: -5f, -5g (to 55f, 25g). Elite receives +2 vs infantry (to +13).

Bengalis:

  • Team bonus: trade generates food (25% of the gold income, instead of 10%).

Bulgarians:

  • Dismounted Konniks take 1/2 population space, they benefit from Bagains.

Burgundians:

  • Update 77209 was good. Might need to go down to 25%. Wait and see.
  • If it were up to me, I would remove Flemish Revolution, but realistically, change it to this: “Villagers garrisoned in Castles are transformed into Flemish Militia”. This limits the extent of the tech, but also gives the player an amount of control over how many units are transformed.
  • Coustillier: +5f/+5g to 60f/60g.

Celts:

  • Woad Raider: -5f (to 55f, 25g).

Cumans:

  • Elite Steppe Lancer upgrade is free upon reaching Imperial Age. This would give Cumans the power spike they need for early Imp.
  • Cuman Mercenaries: As with all ‘Button-like’ UT, I don’t like it, especially as it does not come with any residual effect. Replace it with: Steppe Lancers cost -25%.

Dravidians:

  • Medical Corps: Elephant units regenerate 30HP/min (instead of 20).
  • Barracks’ technologies discount: increased to -75%. OR Elite skirmisher is free.

Ethiopians:
(Just an idea.)

  • Team bonus: replaced by “Outposts cost only 10w”. Outposts are cheap to start with, but not costing stone means they can be used from the beginning of the game. If this were too powerful in the early game, then make it “from Castle Age”.

Franks:

  • Forager bonus: decreased to 10% faster collection.
  • Mounted units +20% HP: restricted to Stable units.
  • Bearded Axe: also grants +1 attack vs pikemen to throwing axemen.
    A fun idea would be to add to Bearded Axe the effect of allowing them to remove trees one by one, but I am unsure of the balance and historicity of such an effect.

Goths:
They clearly need something to be going on for them. Here are a few ideas, not necessarily to all apply together:

  • Receive Plate barding armour (last cavalry armour).
  • Loose boar boni.
  • Huntables (boar, deer) last 25% longer.
  • Villagers +5HP, +1Pierce Armour.
  • Max population +10: Is also granted all the time without building houses (thus start with 15 population available). Also make this a percentage (5% of the total pop).
  • Start with a militia on top of a scout and villagers.

Gurjaras:

  • Chakram thrower (non-elite): Speed -0.1.

Hindustanis:

  • The nerf from Update 77209 was perfect.

Incas

  • Andean Sling -150g.
  • Team bonus: replace with “Infantry +1 LOS”. At least this would help Eagle Warriors.

Italians:
Genoese crossbowmen are now cheaper, and commonly seen. Although I am not certain of the way to do it, it should be differentiated from its Elite version a tad more.

  • Genoese crossbowmen (non-elite): -5 HP, -1 melee armour. Elite upgrade -300f, -150g (to ##### 600g).

Japanese:

  • Kataparuto is too expensive for its effect, which is on par with the Celts’ bonus. Reduce it to 450w, 350g (from 750w, 400g), 40s research time (from 60s). Make the trebuchet pack/unpack last 1s (instead of 4).
  • Samurai: -5f -5g (to 55f, 25g).

Khmers:
They have a ton of excellent late game options, and good trash units. This they can afford to:

  • Lose Hussar.

Koreans:

  • Eupseong -100f, -100w (to 200f, 200w).
  • Shinckichon: also lets Koreans’ onagers deal 50% less damage to friendly units.

Magyars:

  • Upon killing a wolf with a Villager, the player receives 100 food.

Malians:

  • Elite Gbeto +1 attack (at 14).

Mayans:
They are still quite powerful, perhaps too much on Arabia. I am a bit hesitant about the right course of action, especially given that they get hard-countered by a few civs. I propose to nerf a bit their eco, but to make their swordsmen a bit better (against, I don’t know… Huskarl?). It makes them a bit more generic though.

  • Gain access to Supplies.
  • Longer lasting resources bonus nerfed to 12%.

Persians:
The civ is a bit boring and underwhelming. Merging Mahouts with the Elite War Elephant upgrade is an interesting idea, but otherwise a simple idea is:

  • TC/dock works 5/10/15/20% faster in Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age, except for aging up. Excluding aging up would make the bonus definitely stronger in Dark Age, but slightly nerf the Castle and Imperial timings. All together, this is a buff though, but as the launch of DE proved, it needs to be handled carefully.

Poles:

  • Update 77209was good. May need to go down to 6 or 7% food collected by folwarki. We shall see.
  • Obuch: +5g to 55f, 25g. Non-elite: lose -1 Pierce Armour (to 1).

Portuguese:

  • Were shockingly not nerfed by Update 77209.
  • Make Feitoria generation scale with available resources on the map at a given moment (except for food). This way, the trickle of resources depends on what other players can harvest, and that avoids the “turtle” frustrating and unfair strategy, particularly on Islands and Arena.
  • Organ guns (non-elite): -0.1 speed (to 0.75).
  • I am not at all fond of the berry/wood bonus, and think it should be removed. It is fine for a civilisation to have weaknesses.
  • Alternatively, remove block printing.
  • The team bonus is very good, too good, probably the best in the game. Go back to making this a player-only bonus. New, weaker team bonus e.g.: trade units +2/+2 armour.

Sicilians:

  • Serjeant: -5g to 60f, 30g.
  • Donjons cost -25w (to 175s, 50w).

Spanish:

  • Missionaries:+1 range (to 8).

Turks:
Given their performance on Arena, I must say I was wrong a few years ago, and propose to revert the change:

  • Artillery: change cost to 500g, 450s.
2 Likes

Aztecs don’t need any sort of buff, and their UU got buffed already in previous patchs. The civ actually need nerfs especially their monks.

Too much to give 25%, maybe 15% but I don’t think the civ need buffs anyway.

They are fine and son’t need buffs.

Agreed. Also their stable discount need a nerf.

They need a buff but not for their UU, but for their useless castle UT (which should be replaced with something better), and they need something in the castle age like maybe bloodlines or plate barding armour in imp.

They don’t need any buff at all.

They are fine, no need to buff.

No

Useless nerfs

Goths are fine, no need to buff.

Better to nerf Shivramsha, team bonus, 2 bushes & castle age UT.

Not enough. Their camels attack bonus and UU need nerfs also.

Incas are fine no need to any buff.

No need to buff

No need to buff

Agreed.

I wonder if it will make that much difference, but Magyars in good spot, but ok.

No need

No need for supplies buff, agree fo reso##### nerf.

No. Better to replace their both UTs and give bracer.

Agreed for Obuch nerf only. They need also vills regenrate hp nerf and also castle age UT nerf.

Yeah they need a nerf.

Agreed but also their 100% build for castles and TCs still broken in many maps especially nomad, arena and other maps, so this may need a nerf.

Spanish are fine

Their UU also may need a nerf in castle age

No. Please no. They need it to snipe onagers, which are a major threat to a lot of the stuff they can do.

Dravidians: I would give them Elite battle elephant and maybe husbandry for their elephants if this is too powerful then Wootz steel should only apply to Infantry and Elephants
Portuguese:

  • I would water this down but feitoria scaling could be done if it scale based on percentage not total resources otherwise portugese become map dependant also this does not address fast imp Feitoria.
  • -.1 is too slow make i would make make it .05 with more AOE and less base damage so siege is a more effective counter and maybe a reload nerf.
  • I would tone down the berry bonus but wouldn’t remove it unless they get something else
  • if Spanish get to keep +25% trade and Bengalis get 25% food then the portuguese team bonus is finechance would be to give them free husbandy
    EDit* for Turks my preferred rebalance is to replace free light cavs, with free husbandry it would nerf there imperial age spike make it would harder for you to contest relic but it is more versatile which helps on open maps they can go knights, camels, or CA with help from the gold bonus.
1 Like

Not against this, but I think this should go along with lowering the bonus for Spearman line against elephants.

Is there any point in +2 here? The original bonus should be enough against most infantry.

For the Jaguar Warrior itself, I think it would be good to have some attack bonuses against cavalry or gunpowder units. The Aztec macuahuitl was even said to be able to decapitate a Spanish cavalry horse! It’s also a good addition to a civ without Halberdiers and Ring Archer Armor. It’s just that other part of this civilization is too strong to make it difficult for them to get some changes.

You’re reinforcing their already strong late team game on closed maps.

If it was up to me, I would try to improve Ratha.
For example, changing the 25% resistance to conversion and attack bonuses to Paik’s effect and does benefit not only Elephants but also Ratha, while Paik’s original effect was changed to a civ bonus of Elephants ROF 20% faster (while Ratha’s stats also gain an improvement of faster ROF).

The population change is weird here.

Maybe it has something to do with me being an AoE3 player too, I can accept the effect of FR very well.

But I think the easiest way to improve it is to make them train Villagers faster after the Revolution, which helps to solve the most criticized problem of this UT. Of course, if it is very fast, Flemish Militia may need to be weakened.

Any comments on Stronghold?

Um… This can break the balance especially after they have boomed on closed maps.

Some Feudal or Castle Age buffs should be decent, in exchange for cheap Archery Ranges and Stables if needed.

Each Castle can provide 5 free Elite Kipchaks, which means that as long as the team can keep building new Castles, there will always be new free Elite Kipchaks. Strictly speaking, this is still a residual effect.

I think the most important thing it should improve is that the message that reminds teammates that this effect is activated should be easier to notice.

Also, Steppe Lancers, which are 25% cheaper and 100% faster to create, feel too strong to me anyway.

Their skirmishers are good enough and don’t need any bonuses more.
Making Barrack tech discounts more is also less important, since their problem was never that the techs were still too expensive. They need at least one more type of main unit in the Feudal or Castle Age. Maybe the Archer line with faster speed, or the Two-handed Swordsman available an age earlier.

In my opinion, Royal Heirs deserves more tweaking than the team bonus.
It is just the effect of changing the SW training time from 8 seconds to 4 seconds.
I’d rather have the effect be part of the Elite upgrade, or, make it 6 seconds for both Elite and non-Elite, and then give Royal Heirs a new effect. If possible, I hope it can be an effect that can strengthen the team’s infantry UU.

Still, the civilization is already decent, and probably won’t change much more.

Balance and historicity I guess are both not okay.

If you want something historical, you might want to consider giving the Franks Arbalesters, since the term is of French origin. The lack of key techs will make their Arbalesters useless, so it won’t affect the balance too much.

I have no objection to this, but they would lose the Hussars for it.

Too much.

I like the suggestion I mentioned before: Make Goth Villagers take -X% damage from animals. This helps them hunt wild boars without giving them an undue advantage in villager fights. After getting this bonus they might not even need the boar attack bonus and instant Loom anymore.

They have a strong late game, so it’s dangerous to give such a strong early game rigid economy bonus. I’d rather give relatively elastic economic bonuses such as being able to build stone walls or Farm/Lumber/Mining technology to be research instandly, etc.

Silk Road should get changes.

1 second is overpowered.
Having said that, this UT is a 100% fiction at all. It’s as weird as giving the Aztecs Stirrups. A pity as a UT that represents a historical feature of a civilization.

So you want them to have such a powerful effect while with a long range of 10?

No. Wolf meat cannot be eaten. Not to mention getting more meat from wolves than sheep due to rot.
At most, you can get 1 gold symbolically, which represents wolf skin.

Instead of -3%, I would make them unable to get lasting resources from artificial sources, like Farms and Fish Traps.

New UT “Immortals”, which cavalry returns X% (food/gold/both) cost when killed.
Well, an old topic.

Obuch only needs to weaken the attack.

I’d try to keep the current bonus (maybe reduce the team bonus to 10%), and try to remove their Bloodlines or Plate Barding Armor to limit the availability of the tech tree. Their main force would not lose their power, but it would be more difficult to counter their opponents strategically, especially in 1v1. Give them Squires if needed.

I wish Caravels could fire cannonballs instead (but not change the linear trajectory and projectile speed). It would be more Portuguese to be a gunpowder unit, and a cannonball with blast radius is more useful than a scorpion bolt. If possible, replace the inaccurate Organ Guns.

How about let Donjon provide 5 pop each rather than -25w. In addition, let Serjeants build Donjons to have an advantage over Villagers, so as to play advantage of the chicken and egg.

1 Like

I don’t know. It is good to buff scorpions line, but not against elephants, unless we decrease the pikes bonus damage.
I would rather see heavy scorpion: +1 PA (to 8) and +0.05 movement speed (to 0.7)

I think -100f is fine already

If you want to align the costs with wood/farm upgrades, then you should to it fot the feudal age upgrades, currently at 100f/75w.

Franks:

I dont see the difference (franks cav archer dont matter). I think a scaling bonus like 10/15/20% would be interesting (115hp knights only in castle age)

Goths:

Overbuff.

  • Huntables alone gives +300 fast havestable food.
  • I wouldnt give anyone FU Hussars + 10 max pop
  • new pop bonus is +66 starting wood, added to instant loom make alone already a good enough eco bonus for the civ
  • Milicia start sounds very very toxic. Goth lame deers + force early loom and disturb eco without investing villagers.

Magyars:

Did you think about maps like Gold rush ? Magyars would 4 minutes FF into scouts…

Persians:

I think it is too strong on maps with water. You give Persians +1 vil from minute 8, which decrease to +0.5 at minutes 21. and -0.5 vil for imp (the imp nerf hardly matters). It is like +350w upon castle age, adding up to the 2 extra vils (and faster spawning vils) from feudal age, which you give to a paladin civ.
If you want that it is better to balance it with a nerf of starting resources.

Incas

I would even give +2. The civ has good winrates, but nobody plays it. The +2 would be more attractive.

Bulgarians:

Bagains make them already OP, no need for pop reduction.

Geno crossbow honestly Need a buff, not a Nerf…especially since they are the only good counter italians have for cav

3 Likes

heavy scorpions already have a good enough bonus vs elephants, they are meant to be a splash damage unit, not something that is good in 1v1 battles. I see no reason for this change.

The only buff SL need is a reduction of Elite upgrade. Absolutely the unit doesn’t need more armor, the archer weakness is an intended weakness. You can already stack them to massively increase their damage, furthermore the unit already trades sort of evenly vs Knights and it’s very cheap on gold compared to Knights. It has also a “win more” aspect, once you get 30+ on the field with good upgrades, they are nearly unstoppable.

I see no reason for this change, don’t fix that which isn’t broken. The Stone one could maybe use a reduction, yes.

The problem of Jaguar Warrior is not that is has a bad price, but that it’s extremely specialized. The situation where it shines simply doesn’t happen often also because many civs have HC which is a more generalist unit. The idea of Jaguar Warriors is that you make them when the opponent does a Longsword switch vs your all in Eagles. The problem is that Monks are very strong and in practice you end up countering the LS with Monks instead. Also, as we learned from mostly EW, LS don’t really counter Eagles, unless the Eagles wanna run under the TC in which case 6-8 LS kill basically infinite Eagles. Given this consideration perhaps a -5g is justified though again I don’t think this would make them see play.

sure this is a good change. Maybe let’s try +15% first. Don’t want to create another Spanish where if 1 team doesn’t have Spanish it’s nearly auto-win in late game.

LOL absolutely not. Konnik is already a stellar unit, one of the best UUs in the game. I don’t think they need such a big buff.

I didn’t read the rest, I think your takes are bad and you should L2P. For example you are suggesting a Cumans buff which is already one of the better civs on some maps because often the 2 TC boom is unpunishable and that makes them the best booming civ in the game on maps like Fortress for example.

1 Like

Too many changes.
I like that the recent patch just altered 4 civs.
I hope they can keep doing that but more frequent. Like every other month

2 Likes

I read the comments, and soem critics are fair. I would like to make something clear with this long list of proposals: I don’t mean for all of them to be implemented in one big patch, and they are moreover not all on the same level of importance. Some are I think necessary for balance (e.g. a Portuguese change to the early wood bonus, or the monks, or the Organ gun), some are necessary to prevent unfun or unfair strategies to play with or against (Feitorias, Flemish revolution, etc.), and some are simply to add a bit of flavour and variety to the game.

This being said, here are my replies:

  • General:

I agree, although the decrease of the anti-elephant bonus should only apply to halberdiers, and be soft enough (e.g. -3).

Yet they are very rarely seen, and are easily countered by siege and cavalry.

Yes, I would rather have a gold unit rarely seen be a bit more efficient against elephants, and the last upgrade of a trash unit be a tad less. Heavy Scorpions already have 8 PA. :wink:

I know it is an inteded weakness, but it could very much remain for the non-elite, and not be the case for the elite version. Reducing the price of Elite may be interesting, but even doing this, the Steppe Lancer is always competing with other strong cavalry units in Imperial such as the Hussar, Paladin or Keshik. To be clear, I don’t propose to change anything to the Castle Age unit. Elite are simply never seen.

It is not “necessary” indeed, but the stone upgrades, especially shaft mining, are rarely researched. I also just want to start the discussion about why these upgrades are more expensive for a lesser effect (particularly on stone).

I mean, the Feudal Age upgrades don’t need to change really, but if we were being consistent, they would. Double bit axe is 100f, 50w, and Horse collar is 75f, 75w.

  • Aztecs

We can discuss the monks, although I am not too sold on that. Strong monks are only a problem in a combination that can not be stopped, like Bohemians (with insane pikes and Houfnice) or Portuguese (with Organs and siege). It is a strength of Aztecs, but the nerfs to the Aztec eco put them in a good spot in my opinion. Buffing Jaguar is nothing “necessary”, but they are rarely seen, and the cost in particular is a problem considering they are created at a Castle and are so much more expensive than Champions.

I fully agree to this.

  • Bengalis

Perhaps people are right to criticise 25% food from trade as a team bonus. However, it seems fair the bonus would be on par with the Spanish extra-gold generation. Moreover, when trading, gold is the number one resource wanted. This being said, the Spanish team bonus is probably overtuned itself and could be nerfed too, say to 20%. From a pure Bengalis late team game balance perspective, I see how buffing massively the bonus is not necessary. Perhaps 15% as a start.

Balance-wise in 1vs1 open maps, the problem is the early game. However, I don’t see anything wrong with this permutation you suggest. Perhaps it would make people more hesitant in researching the UT though.

  • Bulgarians

Honestly here I am a bit shocked you seem to think Konniks are so good. They are basically more expensive knights, and Bulgarians have better knights anyway. Sure, there is the dismounted konnik, but they are a squishy infantry unit which hardly makes a difference (lowkey does against pikemen).
Bagains is also very late game tech. Perhaps the measures I am proposing are too extreme, but an adjustment to the unit through a dismounted konnik buff seems fair to me. The population change alone may suffice. My logic here is simply that you don’t want too much population to be occupied by a unit of lesser quality than what you could be getting, but also don’t want to execute your own dismounted konniks if they survive a fight. This would only come at play when population efficiency matters.

  • Burgundians

Disagreed, I think touching their eco is the best way to nerf them.

I like AOE3, but prefer AOE3 to be doing its things while AOE2 does its own. I don’t having anything against the effect you propose, but still don’t like the instant conversion of villagers into military units. It could also just unlock Flemish Militia and make TCs work 25% faster. Unsure of the balance of that, but in late Imp I suppose it should be fine.

  • Celts

Fair question. It is not great, especially for the Celts, but I don’t quite know what to do with it. An idea could be to make it a civ bonus, and the new Castle Age UT to be siege firing faster. This would nerf the Hoang rush, but unsure if this is a good idea altogther.

  • Cumans

All right, so first I agree the Cumans are difficult to balance, and they have favourable matchups in certain settings, mostly due to their Feudal boom. This comes down to what I proposing with this list again: here, I focused on Elite Steppe Lancer play with Cumans. I think once everyone is fully boomed, Cumans are far from being insane. The balance problem you mention are all fair, but are almost a different problem (which I did not address here).

We can always talk about solutions to that: a “mini-TC”, with less HP, and which would not produce Villagers as fast, at least in Feudal Age, or even ever. Or increase the build time of the Feudal TC even more?

As for Elite Steppe Lancers, we can talk about numbers. If they get more armour too, then I agree two additional boni here is way too many. Otherwise, either the Elite upgrade could be free, or perhaps a possible cost reduction should not be as strong as 25%. But given their current state, and this being locked behing a UT, 25% cheaper seems fine to me. The Berbers’ cavalry if 20% cheaper, without any UT, and these are three commonly seen and used units, contrarily to ESL.

  • Dravidians

I must say I am not exactly sure of the course of action to take for them, and I agree they a bit of “something” (probably called cavalry to be honest, but this is a defining trait). Your solutions are both interesting. Even cheaper barracks techs would let them double down on infantry, which is still difficult to justify in most cases.

I think their problem is a 1vs 1 speed one, hardly solved by improving their elephants. Better eco may also do, but given how strong they already are on water maps, I would not dare touching that.

  • Ethiopians

Integrating Royals Heirs into the Elite upgrade is a good idea in my opinion, but I did not mention it as I don’t know how to replace it. I agree the civilisation is decent, and my proposed team bonus changed is far from necessary, but more “flavourful”, as it would help getting a better map exploration, and secure possible side resources for the late game.

  • Franks

Yeah, again, this is just a “fun” idea thrown in there, but I don’t think it makes sense (as mentioned in the orginal post). Yet, I would not give them Arbalesters, for balance reasons.

For CA, it does not mater balance wise, but it is silly that they would have this bonus. As scaling the bonus, that would be quite harsh on them, and I would rather nerf them with early economy (berries).

  • Goths

Do they need to though? Do you mean: for trash wars? Historically, the Goths also had good cavalry.

For Goths, I am not proposing to enforce all these proposed changes together. Making their Villagers stronger would participate in making them a bit more solid and harder to raid. Better defense vs wild animals seems fine too, but only applies to early game.

I suppose it could be capped to just boars if need be (and then would be 170f). For reference, the Mayans get +15% on everything (so also sheep, just considering food), and also get their additional Villager from start. Even the Tatars get +400f from sheep. Honestly, if it were just this bonus, I think it would be fine. 25% is not that huge of a bonus.

More generally, the problem with Goths is to have only one type of unit to excel with, and such polarising matchups. This is why I think giving them Plate barding armour would be interesting. Their “gap”, during which they fall off, extends from mid Feudal Age to mid-Imperial. This is probably the longest of any civilisation. I also thought of taking cheaper Blacksmiths from Bohemians to give them, for a bit of a breathe in Feudal, but not good enough.

  • Incas

Yeah maybe, but I am just concerned for the Eagle Warrior bonus to be too good.

  • Italians

Perhaps, what do you think?

Honestly, I don’t think they are too weak anymore, especially given the cost and training time. Perhaps my propositions for differentiating the non-Elite from Elite was too harsh, but right now they are almost the same.

  • Japanese

I agree it is not historical, but it is defining for the civ. However, it is too expensive in my opinion, and rarely seen. Why would 1s be OP? They really lack a late game strong unit to force engagements, and being able to quickly retreat with strong siege is, in my opinion, a way to force engagements in the disfavour of enemies who could just be faster and take better fights otherwise.

  • Khmer

Which FU light cavalry or cavaliers can accomplish perfectly. Also, this partially (but not fully) address the problem of this civ, explained here.

  • Koreans

Or reduce the price of the UT.

  • Magyars

Okay, that is fair.

  • Mayans

Maybe, but this would not come into play before the late game, while the nerf I propose is very much across the board. That being said, I don’t like tuning down this bonus myself, as it is very unique and defining. But they are so very dominant on open maps…

Honestly, Mayans are strong, except if they need Champions (which they still would not get with supplies).

  • Persians

Maybe. This is an interesting idea, although returning cost technologies don’t have a great record so far. But I would not mind trying.

I hear the argument about water, but otherwise, yes, the point is to make them a bit faster. Looking at other eco boni out there, I think it is reasonable. I think however Persians need a little bit of an early bonus, given that the meta is always getting a bit faster, and Persians have always been a bit slow. Looking at where they are now, a little push could do. Adjusting starting ressources to compensate this may be necessary.

Kamandaran is fine, why replace it? I guess it could come in Imperial. I suppose you want to give them Bracer for cavalry archers? This would make them extremely versatile, but not really solve their major early game weakness.

  • Poles

I think there are various ways to address their strength. They have +2/+2 armour in Castle Age. This is incredibly oppressing given their price, so I would rather see the cost increased and the armour decresed for non-Elite.

  • Portugese

This bonus does not really come with any justification for the Portugese specifically… and they can be a slow civilisation on open maps, that’s fine, especially given their gold discount being relevant from Feudal Age. I honestly don’t think their versatility is that much of the issue (especially not so infantry), but the insane Organ/monks/siege pushes on Arena, and the Feitoria.

One way or another, non-Elite Organs should be nerfed in my opinion. Hitting the speed would make them a bit easier to counter with mangonels. Also, it would not make Portugese map dependent, but the Feitoria. It would solve its two main issues: the infinite wood on water maps, and the inifnite gold and stone on all maps (especially closed 1v1).

  • Sicilians

Yeah, why not, I suppose your option is a slightly better buff, although the threshold for addressing a tower rush would still be the same. I suppose it is less problematic these days. Unsure what you mean about letting Serjeants build Donjons?

  • Spanish

The Missionary is not really.

Moreover, I complete this section here:

  • Trade bonus reduced to 20%.
  • Faster constructing villagers only applies after the first TC is built. This is of course a Nomad nerf.
  • Turks

Janissaries are very powerful, but in open maps I think are fine. I suppose the non-Elite one could take a bit longer to train for Arena.

Overall I’d say its a lot of extremely minor unimpactful changes, a couple of broken changes and the only good ones are the mining changes, Steppe lancer elite upgrade and Cumans, Goths balance changes, pop space reduction on infantry konniks and Feitoria. A few changes like Genoese crossbows or Chakram throwers make already situational units even more scarce.

And also things like 100 food instantly on hitting a lion? Its just crazy powerful. Imagine doing 1 spear, luring 4 or 5 wolves and getting 500 food and going up 3 or 4 mins faster to castle age.

Changes for Dravidians, Bengalis, Koreans, Malians, Celts or Incas doesn’t address any of their weaknesses.
Not that Aztecs need any buff, but that change for Jaguars isn’t going to change the way they’re played either. The intended nerf for Franks or Mayans is nearly completely useless to the point where it feels like asking “why don’t you nerf the 15% to 14.5% instead?”

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they are rarely seen because Onagers kill the same units as Scorpions, and they kill Scorpions too. But really Scorpions damage is more consistent and harder to dodge, it’s harder to get rid of a deathball of 20 Scorpions than it is to get rid of say 13 Onagers. Not to mention Scorpions are cheaper.

Again they aren’t played but this doesn’t mean we must overbuff them, vs Elephants of all units, Scorpions do fine.

no, both elite and non elite should not have increased PA. Really you should try playing vs a lesser player, who has worse macro than you and allows you to get 30+ Steppe Lancers, then you will see how hard it is to come back vs them. Elite upgrade could be cheaper but that’s about it. Also let’s remember that for example Tatars get Silk Armor on them, we want Steppe Lancers from Tatars to have Paladin armor?

And even in games with opponents of same skill, it’s possible that sometimes one opponent gets a macro lead. You haven’t played with release SL, but many in here have. They were broken and it doesn’t take a lot to break the unit again.

Steppe lancers trash Hussars and trade about evenly vs Cavalier.

mostly to prevent clowning strategy, the 2nd gold upgrade especially is fairly strong, if it was also cheap you’d see people send everyone to gold and spam Knights on Arabia and go 5 Monasteries on Arena. The fact that this upgrade has a high cost is for the best.

As for Stone, Castle spam isn’t exactly the most fun strategy to play vs, I think it’s best if it stays expensive tbh.

Konniks are not Knights at all lol, Knights die hard to Gurjaras Camels while for example Konniks win that engagement hard, the main deal with Konniks is that Bulgarians makes only 1 unit while opponent must not only make 2 units, but also most likely micro 2 units. They are hard to mass but really they are a good unit, if you count resources spent, then in each engagement they take, if the rider takes a bad trade, the dismounted guy takes a good trade and vice versa.

How would a civ like Gurjaras for example go about in countering Konniks?

How would Franks counter Konniks after Bagains is researched? You realize that the Elite version has more combined HP than Paladin for example, right?

and Camels and most cavalry units like Paladin who need 3 hits to kill them (Dismounted Konnik slaps back hard with 13+4 attack). Really maybe only mass Archers can give trouble to Konniks but even then you can just supply a small Hussar shield for your woes.

You can delete them, even if you removed the Dismounted Konnik mechanic, at worst you are buying roughly a Cavalier when you make Konniks.

The problem with Cumans in late game is that they nearly always have an eco lead on you, so yes Paladin isn’t “insane” because in theory if you are 130 pop and he is 130 pop, and he spams Paladin, you have Halberdier switch ready, the problem is that the more likely scenario is you are 95 pop, Cumans is 120 Pop and the Paladin train hits you. The civ also has FU Halberdier, Champions, a very good UU, Siege Rams. Their tech tree isn’t very spectatular I won’t lie but they have a few options, they mostly struggle in trash wars after they used their Paladin power spike and/or failed to mass enough UU.

I don’t think Cumans need a buff, if we must buff them at all to account for their predictable late game, I would probably give them something like Kipchak +1 range or a tigher arrow spread (missed arrows that hit an unintended target do 1/2 damage or something like that iirc).

But rly Cumans are fine the problem is that most Arabia games with them, assuming no mistakes on either side are basically, if the Cuman player get a nice map generation, he auto-wins, if he gets a bad map generation he loses unless he chooses not to make the 2nd TC (at which point Cumans look a bit like Teutons in Castle age, i.e. unspectacular).

In any case there is no need for so many changes like you post, I get that you are excited about the game but at top level it’s very clear what the big problems are atm, remove those first, then we can talk about whether Elite Battle Elephant needs +1 attack or not.

Really now the priority #1 is nerfing Poles, Hindustanis, perhaps Chinese (I’m not sure here as Chinese are one of the hardest civs to play also even if you get their start down perfectly). Then possibly Burgundians eco is still too strong, possibly Turks still get too much on Arena (Light Cav AND Hussar AND insta Chemistry AND good Bombard Cannons AND faster Gold collection).

On Arabia, probably Knights need a slight nerf and Archers need some minor love, particularly slower archer civs like Koreans or Ethiopians. Those are the big issues with the game, Steppe Lancers are fine, the main reason people don’t make this unit is that the Elite upgrade is very expensive so the transition is not smooth.

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Yes they are almost the same because elite variant is bad, not because castle Age variant is OP. It’s nowhete near that. We should buff the elite variant instead. Giving the elite upgrade +2 MA for example

So your advice on the team bonus is not helped to Bengalis.
To this, perhaps each TC provides 3/2/1 Villagers when hitting a new Age.
When closed maps, people often hit Feudal later for FC, so the influence of 1 Villager more is lower. But this is really helpful in open maps.

If you take Konniks as the main product you bought, and Dismounted Konniks as the extra gift, you will not think that the latter being not good is a problem.

If it dies not long after dismounting, it will hardly occupy the population. If it can survive for a long time and cause damage, it is reasonable to occupy 1 population. You can consider some buffs for it, but it is only weird and meaningless to change the population.

No, it would not.

The Paladin upgrade and Onager upgrade are both expensive but very common. If you can’t provide good strategies, cheap will not promote people. Conversely, as long as it is useful, even expensive will make people try.

Team infantry UU +10% HP may be good.

Looking at their tech tree, no Thumb Ring, no Ring Archer Armor, no Bracer. Arbalesters are almost symbolic because they are not worthy of use in actual battles at all. So I would say they are fine.

French and Germans also had Hussars. To balance, neither Franks nor Teutons have Hussars.
Given that Goths already have crazy Halberdiers in the later games, LC with PBA is enough.

It’s just intentionally making it only applicable to the early game and to be helpless to battles of the Villagers. Otherwise, the Goths will only be an annoying lamer.

My opinion is, making this civilization with powerful late games have more resources to obtain the advantages of combat in the Feudal Age is quite risky for balance.

I would like to help them transition from the weak early to the strong late, such as giving stone walls. And this way is elastic, depending on whether the player decides to use, rather than it will definitely benefit. Alternatively, it is also a safer choice to research eco techs (or only mill/lumber/mining techs) instantly.

Rename it to “Merchant Republics”, and allow it not only -50% cost of trade units for the entire team, but also provide a Merchant to each player in the team. The Merchant is a unit that can generate gold as long as being alive, in a rate as much or half as a Relic. The players should protect it like protecting their Kings.

As a unique thing for a civilization, the UT should be historical.
The 1 second would grant an extreme mobility, making the greatest weakness of Trebuchets almost never exist, especially if you realize that 1 second in the game is shorter than 1 second in real life.

The Imperial UT can be replaced with “Bushido”, providing a slot for improving the Samurais, such as unlocking archer mode for them. In exchange, I think the Japanese can get Bombard Cannons. They did actively use western gunpowder weapons.

The Mayans should have been weaker in the late game.

Because the units with this kind of effect so far are not the main force of the civs. But cavalry units are different here as the Persians rely on them.

Obuch need good armor and health to survive long enough on the battlefield to use their abilities, but they need low attack so they have to rely on other units to kill enemies. Lowering their attack rather than their armor helps bring them closer to the support units they ideally should be.

Maybe also make their gunpowder units no longer get the gold discount after getting the Arquebus effect.

I mean, Serjeants should have an advantage in building Donjons over villagers building Donjons, such as building and repairing faster.

I like this but it maybe too much

Agree

Everything that buff the infantry UU is welcome

I like this but sound too OP in TG for an arena civ

Disagree, then the dismounted unit will be more power than the mounted unit

I like it but WR are already in a good spot

OP, but could be half price

Sounds interesting

Agree

No, their Barracks and Elite skirmisher are already s tier

Could work after Feudal Age

It could be something like a scout militia 11

Agree

I don’t like this, but agree that Khmers are OP late game in Hussar wars

I like this change

No, their late infantry should be bad

This I like it, we can work a way to make this bonus work without be OP or trash

Persians need something to comeback, not sure about the TC/dock bonus

I don’t like this TG bonus, devs need to tone it down or work around

I like this but they need to nerf Hauberk and bring back the bonus damage to 50%

Could work but could be OP (ask Survivlaist)

If they nerf the Houfnice then Artillery has to be nerf a little