Somewhere in this forum someone suggested that the recent balance changes of the Samurai unit (- food cost) and the jaguar warrior (+1 pierce armor) should be swapped. From a gameplay and design perspective i highly support this idea.
Jaguars main purpose is to counter infantry, therefore they are not in need of the pierce armor. Aztecs aswell get access to FU champions (with access to gambesons). In the actual balance FU champions have the same PA as FU jaguars which is a bit weird to me. Food discount would help to differentiate these two units and would make the jags more accessible in early castle age.
Samurai on the other hand have the purpose to counter a broad selection of units due to their attack bonus against unique units. Some unique units deal melee damage, some ranged damage. So it would be neat to make the samurai more universal resistant with +1 pierce armor.
What do you guys think?
I was initially against the current change and support Samurai+1 PA, but in hindsight the current iteration also makes sense.
Japanese eco drops off , while they don’t necessarily have the rapid offensive potential that Aztecs do (Train faster, eagles, broad eco bonus, super strong power units through monks)
So discounting the samurai makes sense from a balance perspective even if it doesn’t make irl sense. Reducing the food cost still makes them more viable against a wide range of targets, and +1PA still isn’t going to let them fight UU CA, or even be a coat effective counter Vs most UU archers.
But the food reduction does make them more useful much earlier in the game.
Jaguars don’t need the food reduction, they’re already an amazing anti infantry unit and the discount just makes them better where they’re already good. But giving them PA makes them more useful in more cases.
I have no problem with JW cost reduction. In fact, I’ll not even remove the extra 1PA.
For Samurai, the problem is they are already a clone of militia line in most cases. Giving them 1PA will make them even more similar to militia line. I advocated for 1MA instead to differentiate them. But now maybe there can be a big tweak in Samurai stats to make them a proper counter to a big number of UU. I think it will be best if they are literally an UU specialist and not just a reskinned Champion that costs more outside of UU. For example -
Cost 50f/30g → 60f/30g
Attack 10, 12 → 7, 10
Attack bonus vs UU +15, +18
PA 1 → 3
Is it an impossible mechanic to code that samurai take less damage specifically from UUs?
I would give Samurai more speed. From 1 to 1.1 at least. But maybe also 1.15
It would never be able to catch mounted UUs, but it should be able to better catch ranged foot UUs at least.
This was from a Reddit post.
I don’t think a switch is a great idea though. +1 PA would have been fine for either of them, and is fine for the Jag to keep. Really don’t like the cost reduction for the Samurai though. That’s the kind of thing you do when a unit makes good use of its niche but is too expensive for what it does, or where you want to buff a unit but are highly constrained in the ways you can do it (both of these apply to the Teutonic Knight). The way they threw it on the Samurai just looks lazy and boring though, when they could have made it better at its niche.
Could be done easily, same way as the Shotel buff. Which kind of irks me, that they made another UU far more interesting in a way that wasn’t really needed for its niche or identity, but left Samurai in the same lame state that people have been complaining about for years. But at least now you’re spending less for it to still die horribly to most ranged/mounted UUs.
I feel like there’s a major thematic problem with lowering the cost of Samurai: they’re supposed to be elite warriors. They should be expensive and worth the cost, not cheap or niche.
Revert the cost and give them like 50+% resistance to damage from UUs. That should help them reaffirm their role as anti-UU
Just give to samurai +1/+1 and is fine.
Great idea. Although I want a flat damage reduction like Royal Heir instead of a percentage value.
I like balance change Jaguar. Unique unit should be special and cool. Unique unit with just less cost and lower pierce armor than FU champion is not cool.
Also after Eagle nerf, Aztec need more of Elite Jaguar as their power unit along with their Seige/monks.
I just think Samurai change is more of lame. It need more PA or more speed instead of cost reduction.
I reiterate my suggestion to give it more speed. No amount of PA Is going to make it able to withstand Archer UU fire, but more speed can give it the edge vs foot archer UU at least. A bit similar to what Woads can do.
Agree that samurai needs resist againt uu, and jaguar warrior needs better defensive stats.
Japanese: Remove yasama tech, add new tech: Samurai take less damage from unique units+ guard towers +1 more arrow, keep +1 arrow so totaly +2 more arrow for japanese towers. Remove bloodline. With this upgrade, japanse mobility problem will be started at castle age but their new bonus will allow them to have better area control on map with better towers.
Aztecs: Elite Jaguar warriors should have 3/3 armor so they can cover weak sides ( cav, archer,) of generic aztecs play.
This is a big nerf. No thanks.
Japanese have viable knights in castle age and FU heavy horse archers, if you remove bloodlines their cavalry becomes trash, limiting their options.
Yasama has utility in water maps, Samurai needs speed, nothing else.
It will not limit their option, they will have usefull uu and better tower play. Their cavs already trash( lacking last armoe upgrade) but now their cavs will not be enough to protect their towers. It is a balance change. Also non of the strong tower civ has fu cav archer so why should japanese have?
Yeah, it’s very strange and unthematic how:
Primitive shirtless warrior:
2/2 armor. 5 less HP, same everything.
Elite full armored warrior
1/1 armor. 5 more HP. same everything.
The idea is reversed. It’s much more thematic making the Samurai expensive and stronger and the natives cheaper.
Now that you break it down what you said makes a lot of sense…
I post this a lot, I know, but I really do believe Samurai need the ability to switch to a ranged mode, like Rathas.
- It was planned from the start, but had to be scrapped due to limitations at the time; Rathas having the option means that this is no longer the case.
- Giving them a ranged option allows them to deal with ranged UUs, which Samurai can’t really catch up with. Base damage can be low to prevent ranged Samurai from being too oppressive.
This is obviously the best tweak to Samurai ever, two bird with one stone.
I didn’t propose it because I didn’t think devs would do that though.
It’s true. But in the end, it’s just a game. Both of the UU needed a buff, so devs decided to give some. Not very well thought imo as they are already a last moment change.