Taking too long time in new teamgames

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
62

Its very true that china has highest amount of landmarks in the game, but each landmark costs full price and outside of feudal and clockwork landmarks all remaining been questionable or complete shit through whole game. So why is that civ has to make shitty choices ? Even feudal landmarks used to be complete trash till they got buffed and even then they’re not par what other civs got.

You do understand that china to get actual bonus for aging up they need to build those 2 landmarks? If we had to build them normal speed it would be massive disadvantage and no one would ever build them. Even only in latest patch we can see BBQ and IA being much more useful for china and helping the early game, but at the same time clockwork is shit, IP is okayish but nothing compared what other civs got, Gateway and spirit way absolutely dogshit and so is the bonuses for yuan and ming. Ming arguably the best out of those two but 3600 for 10% HP is not worth.

63

I am not arguing about 100% build speed nor even if china is balanced or not. You asked why China is able to build a landmark in a corner less punished than other civs, and I answered.

Imagine putting Berkshire palace in a corner. Heh.

Edit: also China players are famous for hidding great wall.

64

“less punishement” So song dynasty is not punishment or investing 1800 resources or 3600 resources on dynasty that isn’t useful? Any other civ spent less resources building their age up somewhere on map than china spends on 2nd landmark in castle or imperial

In feudal only landmark that could be build somewhere on map is BBQ. Not building IA in your base has huge economic hit plus not able to train IO inside your base is huge loss.

65

China has the better late game thanks to these “unuseful” landmarks. Not to say that before the patch having 7 landmarks instead of 4 (or 2, if you play as abbasid) is a huge advantage.

I don’t know what more to say. For me is clear that China is less punished hidding landmarks than other civs, mainly because you got more landmarks.

66

The fact of the matter is that there are no concequences for leaving your landmarks undefended now as you can most times come back again and again with the support of your team mates.

I’m sorry but if you lose all of your landmarks, your out! Learn to defend your base better & learn to play as a team not as a solo player that is a burden on his/her team.

67

On second thought, perhaps there must be some kind of middle ground.

With this change, the rush becomes totally unfeasible to finish the game in Feudal and that only makes it easier to boom/age up to Castles, so it would break the rock/paper/scissors.

A middle ground would be best, I’ve been told to they should put a 2-minute cooldown on it to completely repair a Landmark, if you can’t repair it, you are out, for example.

68

And what makes you think its “better”?

Unless your landmark is like aachen chapel or something that needs to be tied to specific location then its not for anymore punishing for you to hide landmarks. You can hide any landmark that has no affect to your economy. Yes it will slow your age up for other civs but chinas sacrifice is the extra cost that you don’t have to spend as civ X.

If you sent 4 villagers to build your landmark it takes them idk like 30 seconds ? to reach somewhere far from your base and build landmark. Yes you’re 30 seconds later but you’re not going to collect 1800/3600 resources on those 4 villagers in that time you build the landmark and travel there.

69

Really? Having the best eco boom of the game, more collection speed while you progress through dinasties, the best powder siege units (and powder tech free), etc…

China is not the only one civ that has to spend extra resources to get benefits from age up (Hello, Abbasid). At least China gets a benefits directly from age up.

70

if a player is annihilated in such a way that he loses all his buildings even if he hides his villagers, he cannot have a greater impact on the game until he recovers, as I mentioned I would play with friends on discord, I would not play with strangers, that only creates an environment of toxicity like any cooperative game

71

He estado haciendo tests acerca de poder hacer el Rush, y el TC principal (con 20 unidades dentro), eliminan a 2 arietes con puras flechas antes de que esos 2 arietes le quiten la mitad de vida. Eso nunca pasaba antes.

72

We both agree that the battering ram should pay less, I will do a survey in a few days

73

Ya no es solamente eso, sino que el TC principal está más fuerte de lo que debería.

74

Chinese boom isn’t best. Abbasids is. If china goes 2TC song its 150 resources every 13 seconds which is equal to 3 TC boom on any other civ, but if abbasid goes 3TC they spent 75 food. Chinese boom is not “best”

If you go 1TC song which equals to 1.5 TC and costs 600 resources vs 2TC which is 700 resources which can’t compete with 2TC play so you have to go 2 TC or 2TC song which opponent can match with their own 3rd TC.

Chinese boom is not different from any other civ. In the long run they only save 200 resources from 2TC song vs 3TC and its same.

What game are you even playing? Collection speed? Chinese villagers do not collect faster. China can supervise (up to 4 buildings which is the maximum amount of imperial officers) which results 20% increased resource gain meaning 10 resources turn to 12. Tax is delivered to building automatically which IO can then collect at 40 or 80 (with tech) and deliver to TC.

Then what comes to chinese gunpowder units and siege they’re dogshit. China is no longer siege civ. Bombards get hard countered by every civ and china has no response to imperial age siege like culverins or trebs. Yes their siege still has more HP and faster reload speed which is irrelevant but china cannot protect bombards. Also clockwork tower can only produce at rate of 1x and is tied to location where its made. This results less than 1x reinforcement rate unless fight is very near the clockwork tower. So clockwork units are literally irrelevant.

Firelancers are shit, grenadiers are shit and what comes down to handcannoneers the extra 0.7 tiles range they gained is nice till you realize what you lost to gain that especially when handcannoneers were nerffed in patch by 20HP making them weaker to all civs. Meanwhile streltsy has like 50 melee dmg and higher gunfire dmg and attack speed than handcannoneer. Seems legit for gunpowder civilization?

??? Directly from age up? China enters to feudal age they gain nothing. China needs to go dynasty to get any form of bonus from dynasties. Yes abbasid has to research their stuff sure but lets face it fresh food stuff is completely broken level tech. So do tell me how much resources abbasid spents on those tecs? Freshfood costs 175 resources. Chinas IO upgrade costs 175 resources. If you create 100 villagers as abbasid with that tech it saves you 2500 resources

75

So the options are

  1. Go back with the changes and ruin TG as you can 3v1 one player early
  2. Keep the changes and kind of destroy the propose of landmark (no more players hiding vills to prolong the game)

Why not give a reason to the team to recover the landmarks but not necesarely killing a player?

Something like new buildings cost extra, or have less hp (it could be a debuff to all the team, but specially to the player whos lost all his landmarks)

You could also debuff trade between the landmarkless team in a similar way

Either option penalize the team for walling into a corner and give them a reason as a team to get back their landmarks

76

  1. You are forgetting the time cost and gathering cost of 3TC vs 2TC+song (not to mention that building 100% faster and getting 35% vill speed training + more taxes is really good). But I agree with you that Abbasid boom is also good, but not as good as Chineese.

  2. I am playing AOE4 and in AOE4 there is a tech for Chineese in imperial that gives you more collection speed based in the number of dinasties you got. Did you know? If not you should.

  3. Again you are forgetting things. They can’t train culverins but can train more HP bombards with better reload and better distance.

  4. Firelancers is nonsense unit, I agree, but Zu Ge Nu is not and grenadiers is not. Even firelancers can have it’s own duty if you play them smart.

  5. That’s not true. China enters feudal and gain or a “keep” to defend/rush or a building that improves gold taxes. You can save 2500 food when making 100 villagers but tell me, how much gold will you get from taxes in that time? Every civ has his tricks.

You are comparing Abbasid and China all the time and I am main Abbasid and I played China a lot a few months ago. My rank (diamond) is all playing Abbasid, so I know the boom ability of them, and I can ensure is not as fast as the chineese boom.

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I personally think that we should go back to how it was before, in a team game it’s up to the whole TEAM to defend & help each other so communication & scouting is KEY here to see incoming attacks to prepare for them.

Of course if you are playing against random folks with bad communication & scouting you are going to be sniped sometimes, that’s not the fault of the landmark victory but the lack of helping each other out as a team.

Currently the new landmark changes are a joke, and there are no longer any concequences and you can leave your base undefended pretty much & as long as you have villagers you can always run away with those whenever you get attacked and always rebuild it later with the help of your team mates.

This makes TG much worse in my opinion and they didn’t think this change through 100% and it shows.

78

Team games are much more TEAM based after the patch.

Great patch and great changes.

4 Likes
79

The issue seems to me that there is a fundamental misunderstanding with what Fuedal aggression is.

Coming from League of Legends I’ll use some examples from there as comparisons.

League of Legends is hard locked behind about 15min of garunteed gameplay, unless someone leaves the game for several minutes before then. There is basically no realistic way to win the game before this point, no matter how far ahead you are.

Relic seems to be following a similar path as this, now whether this is a good model for an RTS is a separate discussion, but with the recent changes it seems to be shifting away from the 10min games we saw at release.

This means that fuedal VICTORY is highly unlikely, and if you don’t like that, thats perfectly reasonable. Im aure otnwill shift back to that meta again at some point going forward.

But that doesn’t mean fuedal aggression isn’t still a viable decision to make. If properly executed, Feudal aggression can be a lucrative way to gain an advantage over the opponent, or even help steer the gameplay in a favorable direction for yourself (forcing a certain unit yype to be built, etc)

It is no longer about ending the game in 10-15min by wrecking through their base. It’s about injuring, slowing, crippling the enemy to allow for a cleanup in Castle.

Like League of Legends. The first 15min is “laning phase”. You are not ending the game in this time, you are setting yourself up for your win-con after the first 15, and how well you succeeded at the end depends on how you set up for it. Playing safe and farming (booming), Snowballing off of kills (sniping villagers), etc are all ways to achieve this.

Even MTGA has fast vs long game metas depending on the current card rotations.

I think a modern RTS survives off of an ever changing meta, where different civs, won-cons, and different ages become better and worse as each patch (or season) adjusts the game to favor each one.

3 Likes
80

Rock/paper/scissors in RTS is essential. If the other players make a greedy strategy (multiple TCs boom or quick age to third) and make almost no units, a team all-in should be able to win if executed correctly, just as a turtle or defensive strategy should be able to win at a rush all-in.

The game is becoming more like AoE2 in that sense and that is not going to make those who play 2 go to play 4 just as it will make many of the 4 leave because they don’t like the greedy/anti-rush meta.

IMO they must improve the ram in some way, they must lower hp to the TC and they have to find a formula that is between sniping 2/3 Landmarks and kicking you out of the game or having to snipe all of them.

81

People cryied about rams, cryied about tower rush, cryed about landmark snipe, cryed about getting feudal rushed, and now that everything of that list is considerable nerfed, what would they cry?

Meanwhile, the people who enjoy with a vast number of possible strategies, and the freedom of rush, boom, turtle or whatever, has to see how the game gets more and more plain every patch.

People crying about feudal rushes is the same people that even doesn’t scout the enemy base, then 4 rams appear in the horizon and come here to say that rams and rush is too op.

And to the people saying that now team games are more team based… People continue leaving the game at the moment they are getting rushed, and if they don’t the game get artificially prolonged.

And now that someone is attacking you has no negative effect in the whole team. Played a few games today, and I felt like people just play more alone than before, because if I am getting rushed or someone is getting rushed is no problem since he will not get eliminated.

7 Likes