Relax 1vs1 players nothing’s changing. My logic is simple - the team bonus is too strong to be a team bonus.
Khmer:
Team bonus - Villagers can garrison in houses
Civilization bonus - Scorpions +1 range
I feel that the Khmer Team Bonus is really strong. It literally makes the unit go from B tier to S tier, especially against Archers. Khmer are no slouch in team games, much better than in 1vs1 because of the Elephant factor.
Teutons:
Team bonus - Murder Holes (/Herbal Medicine/Both) free
Civilization bonus - Units resist conversion
This is obviously too strong to be a team bonus. Any one arguing against this does not know Monks. At low level, it may mean nothing. But at higher level, it means that Teutons are a free pick on Team Arena and other clown maps. You dont even need to do something out of the gate.
Why this specific bonus? Every civ has Murder Holes so the team bonus will be universally helpful. Outside of this (a free tech), no other bonus could have been used. The garrison bonus with TCs will help you win every TC battle. The garrison bonus with towers will help you win every tower battle.
Saracens:
Team bonus - Transport Ships have double HP and +5 carry capacity
Civilization bonus - Foot archers +3 attack vs standard buildings
This is also one of the stronger bonuses. I get Saracens do not have much options in early game, but when allied with Britons/Mayans/Ethiopians, those archers become much dangerous.
[obvious] Vietnamese:
Team bonus - Enemy TC locations shown at start of the game
Imperial Skirmisher made a unique upgrade
With the latest patch 73855, allied vision is actually shared, so it functions like a TB anyways. Moreover Imperial Skirmishers are not seen in team games either. So things remain the same, but labels get fixed.
Most team bonus are situationally helpful. The Briton and Hun ones are really strong in early game because you are usually short on wood, but they do not provide an innate value. Those units work the same. I also feel that the Berber team bonus can be changed since Genitours are not seen in TG and even in 1vs1, Berbers have FU Skirmishers.
Probably the TO or a favorite team of his just lost against that civ combo.
Presumably on a closed map like Arena or Black Forest. As this would make a kinda good combo at these map types. Though I think there would be stronger civs. It’s also not the civ bonusses that make this combo so strong rather than the individual civs just synergize quite well with each other.
Scorps are almost never made in open map TGs and archers are quite uncommon on closed map TGs. And moreover in the Khmer team, its usually the Khmer player who goes for heavy scorps in imperial age as they have the best scorps. Other civs with strong scorps like Celts, Ethiopians or Mongols will rather be doing SO.
The Elephant factor used to be a common thing back when they had 8% faster farming rates and 15% faster moving elephants. Nowadays its very difficult to make them work on open maps and opponent team will have a ton of halbs or other counters like genoese by the time the Khmer player collects enough elephants. Overall Khmer haven’t been much popular since Nov 2020 for team games. Definitely much better in 1v1 than in TG.
With all the turtle slow units, the conversion resistance was the one favorable factor for them in team games. Things like Murder holes are just even more useless in TGs.
No one is going to argue that its not a strong team bonus. But those are the only maps where Teutons are picked for TG and that bonus is one of the main reasons for it. Without it, it will be another useless civ like Goths or Dravidians.
This might be fair. A generic unit like archers having extra attack against buildings for the entire team is quite strong.
So do you propose some other team bonus given how there’s shared vision?
Actually quite the opposite. Imperial skirms, extra range on scorps are average team bonuses while Britons team bonus is the most BROKEN in the game and Huns are much stronger than all the bonuses you’ve listed as well. The opponent team with those civs will get a huge military number advantage and you can’t match them. It matters a lot on all open map TGs.
How exactly is it strongest? Bulgarian TB is striclty better than Portugese until 40th min. Apart from blacksmith techs, everyone in general do upto 15 technologies - 2 wood upgrades, 2 mill upgrades, wheelbarrow, handcart, 1 or 2 mining upgrades, 4 or 5 upgrades related to the unit lines they’re producing. 5 seconds saved on any of the wood or mill or mining upgrades is practically useless. I can see 18 seconds of benefit from wheelbarrow being useful in long feudal games but apart from it, the only techs that actually benefit from that bonus come in imperial age like chemistry, paladin, heavy camel, plate barding.
I kind of agree with you. I always thought about the bonus which added the least value statistically. But a defensive bonus like this is adding so much value indirectly.
Won’t make Saracens better but Britons/Ethiopians OP.
There is a case for Chinese HS to be made as well. You don’t see them normally because they miss SE, but with Khmer they will be too strong.
The conversion resistance is still there as a civ bonus.
Nah. The Vision bonus becomes the official team bonus and the Imp skirm becomes a civ bonus.
I agree, but theoretically they are mostly saving wood. Instead of building 6 buildings, you getting value for money since in early game you cannot afford many buildings, the team bonus really gives a bang for the buck.
Celt scorpions with Khmer teambonus are a balancing disgrace to casual mich or African forest lobbies and have to go. Too strong of a bonus.
Teitom teambonus makes monks strategy and unit line in arena like teamgames for the hole enemy team unusable is garbage.
Imagien a teambonus that makes your enemies can’t go archers at all. That would suck. Making it a civ bonus allows more variety in teamgames and allows monks to live
Aztecs: Same
Bengalians: Town centers work %3 faster (?)
Berbers: Same
Britons: Same
Bohemians: Same
Bulgarians: Same
Burgundians: Same
Burmese: Militia line get +3 los
Byzantines: Same
Celts: Same
Chinese: Same
Cumans: Same
Dravidians: Same
Ethiopians: Same
Franks: Castles work %10 faster (? )
Goths: Same
Gunjaras: Same
Hindustanies: Same
Huns: Same
Incas: Same
Italians: Advencing to next age %10, %15,%20 faster (condos as uu, only italians can create from barrack) (?)
Japanese: Outposts cost no stone
Khmer: Minimum range of scorpions removed
Koreans: Same
Lits: Same
Magyars: Villagers can pet wolf type animals (1 shot bonus removed)
Malay: Same
Malians: Same
Mayans: Same
Mongols: Same
Persians: Same
Poles: Same
Porteguese: Same
Sarances: Same
Sicilians: Farmers slowly healed while not get attacked.
Slavs: Same
Spanish: Same
Tatars: Archers (except hand conners and skirmishers) get +2 range
Teutons: Same
Turks: Same
Vietnamese: Same
Vikings: Docks %20 cheaper
They’re not seen because Chinese aren’t a closed map TG civ where scorps are made. Chinese and Khmer are probably ok in 2v2 but you’ll never see scorps as a main army. Overall this is just an extremely niche situation for which a nerf is unnecessary.
Its not going to get picked if the conversion resistance isn’t a team bonus. Right now Teutons makes monk rush or monk defense from enemy team less viable and that’s very useful in closed maps. If it’s a just civ bonus, there won’t be any necessity to pick Teutons.
How is that a bonus when it’s already there? Its like saying they have no team bonus. And this civ isn’t even picked that often in team games.
Its not just saving wood. You can’t add another range after 2 mins to match the Britons’ team’s numbers and hit castle age around the same time. So its not just “wood”, its either having lesser archer numbers or being significantly slower. Both of those are a huge disadvantage.
Its not about just building the buildings. You can’t sustain production and get the normal build for castle age. If you’re Cumans or Dravidians you might be able to build 3 or 4 ranges but you would need 25+ vills on wood and gold combined to just keep up production and adding houses while also saving for blacksmith and ######### or for villagers and farms. So its simply not possible to match numbers until 14 or 15 mins.
Repeat of malay bonus but lower percentage. This can cause some civs even more problematic. Imo, Mayans does not need the wall discount and can change to repairing cost -33%. Wall discount can be given to Italians.
Since the Portuguese buff, shared vision has been a global change that affects all players at the very start of the game, so Markets are unnecessary to unlock it.
The Viet enemy TC sight being a team bonus would be wholly redundant, since it would have the exact same effect as the current version, which ISN’T a team bonus; your allies can see the enemy TCs regardless because of the shared vision.
That said, I wouldn’t say no to Viets having a better TB. I’m an advocate for Imperial Skirmishers being available to the majority of civilizations to make Skirmishers better in Imperial, but that would require a new TB. My ideas aren’t the best, nor would they be the most balanced, but some spitballs:
-Sappers available in the Castle Age
-Trade units generate 20% of gold as wood
-Foot archers +2 LoS (moved from Magyars — they get something else)
-Skirmishers 100% accuracy (thus removing the need for Thumb Ring)
I thought the same but there are many similar situation ( franks ut-huns bonus,byzantines imp discount-italian ageup discount etc) and it will only works 3 times in a game.
Also i dont thing wall discount or repairing discound is that good. Maybe mayans can get a new bonus.
@SauravT@FranksAreLame
How about expanding vision bonus to enemy docks and castles ? Like, Vietnamies and allies can detect enemy tcs, castles and docks without exploring them.
