Teuton, Sicilian and Lithuanian suggestions and other general changes as well as other civs

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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General Changes:

  1. Garrisoned units in transports and siege units are effected by herbal medicine and are given a normal garrisoned base healing rate.

  2. Villagers effect siege unit movement speed when garrisoned.

  3. Fishing ships are able to repair ships and harbors, and siege units if they are near the shore, or buildings in general as long as they are within reach same as how villagers can do the same but on land.

  4. Sea walls and Gates are available to be built by fishing ships.

  5. Cannon galleon attack range reduced to 12(13 with siege engineers) attack projectile speed increased, damage to land units increased. (One shot a monk anyone?)

  6. Basic Monk healing range increased by 1.3x or by a maximum of +3 tiles.

  7. Ship repairs cost 15% (from 50%) of the original cost.

Teutons:

  1. Gain Crusader Knight as a unique upgrade of the knight line replacing cavalier with the removal of the paladin upgrade.

  2. Team Bonus changed to: Monk healing range 2x
    While the current team Bonus is moved to their civilization only bonuses. (The conversion resistance)

  3. Additionally, the imperial Unique Tech also increases town center range by +7 in addition to the current +3 on castles.
    Stone cost changed to wood cost like the Turkā€™s unique tech.
    And increases defensive structure attack by +1.(town centers, towers and castles)

3.1 Optionally, the castle age unique tech gains the additional effect of +3 range on town centers. Instead of an increase to the imperial tech.

  1. Title of the Teuton civilization changed to;
    Defensive Infantry and Siege Civilization

  2. Stable bonus removed, barracks bonus increased by +1 pierce armor in Imperial age.

Sicilians:

  1. Gain Crusader Knight as a unique upgrade of the knight line replacing cavalier upgrade.

  2. Imperial Unique Tech changed to: spawns a one time batch of 7 Elite Teutonic Knights per town center(maximum of 5 tcs) ; (additionally) Elite Teutonic Knights available in Town Centers at x2 normal cost.

  3. Sergeants gain the ability to repair siege and ships at the same rate as a villager.

  4. Team Bonus changed to: sergeants available in Town Centers in Imperial Age, and, for Ally civilizations, at x2 cost.

Lithuanians:

  1. Castle Age unique tech buffed: Town Centers +3 range, +2 attack and additionally (all buildings) garrisoned units, including villagers, worth x2 attack.

Spanish:

  1. Missionary heal range increased x2

  2. Bombard canons effected by ballistics as well like their canon galleon cohorts.

  3. Conquistadors no longer effected by cav archer armor. (less or no bonus damage from skirmishers)

Italians:

  1. Condo buff vs gunpowder units in the form of a little more tank would be nice, perhaps less bonus damage(if they take any) or simply a corosponding increase in the armor needed to tank those shots further without over-buffing them.

Mongols:

Nomads now unlocks the full pop limit, instantly deletes all (mongol, of this one playerā€™s ownership) houses for dramatic effect. Add some kind of epic and scary sound effect similar to the hunsā€™ atheism for fun.

Britons:

  1. Gain Crusader Knight upgrade replacing cavalier but for them specifically change the flag/emblem from the teutonic order to their own version to differentiate it historically, that is if it has any historical value at all. If not, then just to differentiate them from the teutonic order, which was also in Sicilian territory and their own.
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You shouldnā€™t be able to heal in a moving transport like this. Healing in buildings is fine, because you have to actually withdraw troops from combat, with the tradeoff being they get healed. Healing with monks is fine, because either you withdraw the troops so they canā€™t fight, or you put the monk in danger. Being able to heal and perform another task isnā€™t great.

Not a fan, but Iā€™m not sure how significant it would be.

Fishing ships already have a purpose. Fishing. To do this, you need a new kind of boat added, a builder boat or something.

The original devs did consider it, but they found being able to create sea walls just ended up with people walling in enemy docks, rather than defensive play like it was intended. Iā€™m not opposed to the idea, but it needs some check put in place to ensure it isnā€™t a problem.

They arenā€™t meant to kill land units, they are meant to be for shore bombardment, so Iā€™d rather have the extra range probably.

Donā€™t see it changing much, so Iā€™m not totally opposed.

No. This was badly received when you first suggested it, and I think itā€™ll be badly received now. Itā€™s either an insane nerf, or an insane buff, and either way, they donā€™t need it. Just leave the Crusader knight as a unique scenario editor only unit.

Conversion resistance is more useful, monk healing isnā€™t that great anyway, why are you trying to spread it everywhere? You are one of the few people who actually benefit from these changes, because they are all very biased towards your comp, not the majority playstyle.

First off, thatā€™s going to be a lot of extra text in the description. Itā€™s good that it costs stone, because it means that not even BBCs (Except Turks) can outrange your castles. The extra attack isnā€™t needed. What is it with you and the extra TC range? Stop already. Once again, only you benefit from it really, the bonus was originally removed because it created strategies that werenā€™t fair, and itā€™s not at all needed now.

Thatā€™s a whole lot of stuff, and they donā€™t need a change. Besides, you need at least one comma in that description.

Why? This is a nerf, and it just further invalidates the TK. If its a bid to justify the Crusader Knight, Iā€™m not buying it.

Honestly, Teutons are pretty much balanced, if you donā€™t like that, itā€™s more because it doesnā€™t fit the exact style of play you have, itā€™s not a problem with the civ. Donā€™t ruin something for the majority for the benefit of the individual.

Sicilian cavaliers are already really good, why? Itā€™s still a really bad idea.

What? No. Just no. You canā€™t give ETKs to another civ, that invalidates them partially as a UU. You definitely canā€™t let another civ just create them because you like them. Besides, Serjeants are partially derived from TKs anyway, they donā€™t need this at all.

Maybe, Iā€™m not totally opposed to this.

Stop spreading UUs around, no. Itā€™s just bad honestly.

The extra range is fine, you donā€™t need to give a heap of other random stuff for no reason whatsoever.

Maybe, although I think Missionaries need a different rework.

No, crossover with Arquebus, and they donā€™t need it anyway, donā€™t they fire faster?

Why? The unit is already really good, it doesnā€™t need to be straight up broken in some situations like this. Itā€™s not meant to fit into a comp the way you play, itā€™s meant to be actively microed and moved around, itā€™s a mobile raiding unit that packs a punch mostly, not something meant to be part of a death push.

Condo needs something else I think.

Unlocking full pop is fine, deleting the houses isnā€™t. Itā€™s actually a really bad move, because house walls suddenly disappear, which could literally cost you the game.

Stop it with the Crusader knight already, itā€™s a scenario editor only unit, and it should stay that way. Iā€™m not sure if itā€™s because you want regional skins, or just to break some civs, but this isnā€™t the way to go about it.

You also need to justify and explain the purpose of each change, because none of them seem to have a purpose other than benefitting you or providing some historical based reskin change, and none of them are needed or balanced.

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In regards to fishing ships/builder boats, I would suggest implementing the job change similar to how villagers change tools when switching tasks, with the boats it would be similar. Itā€™s more of a repurpose of the vessel rather than a completely new boat.

Added an additional change as the 7th of the general changes:

Ship repairs cost 15% (from 50%) of the original cost.

@TheConqueror753

Iā€™ll give a little more emphasis later, but for now for the sake of ship repair cost reduction - turtle ships, they cost as much as a war elephant just to repair, I think thatā€™s way too pricey for a unit thatā€™s supposed to keep up over time. The reduction in repair cost would make keeping up oneā€™s navy a normal part of regular gameplay rather than suiciding balls of previously damaged ships into each other with little to no thought of keeping them alive beyond spam go brrrr.

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I think it would help to explain why you think these changes would be beneficial. Itā€™s not clear to me why youā€™re suggesting any of them. I especially dislike the changes to Teutonsā€™ cavalry, which would turn the civ from one of my favourites into something I wouldnā€™t really want to play.

Iā€™m particularly confused about your suggestion of Crusader Knights for Britons:

If you want regional skins for units, this seems a very odd place to start.

It has historical value in the sense that English knights went on crusade - but so did, e.g. French knights, yet youā€™re (sensibly) not suggesting Crusader Knights for Franks.

The Teutonic Order was in English territory? Are you basing this on the fact that the map on Wikipedia has a dot in what used to be the Angevin Empire?

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The Teutons and the Sicilians have some history together, the the teutonic order being stationed in Sicily for a good while.

Teutonic Knights in Sicily - Best of Sicily Magazine.

As for the Britons I was specifically saying the removal of the teutonic order symbol for them was to remove them from that relationship of being tied to the Teutons but to keep the basic premise of the unit.

I like the idea of the unit for Britons as well, but I feel itā€™s mostly a possibility for Teutons and Sicilians mainly due to the unit already having the teutonic order all over its state of dress.

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Is it a balance change or a regional unit thing? You kind of need to make up your mind about that.

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Itā€™s both, itā€™s a crusader thing, regional unit thing as well as, within reason cause I donā€™t think Frankā€™s would benefit from it much at all, but some of the other crusaders such as Britons, Teutons and Sicilians would see decent use of It and have additional balance changes that could give it a solid place.

In the Britons side the unit itself would need to change to Britons flags for the sake of historical accuracy, or at least a semblance of it. The ā€˜crusader knightā€™ is a premise most of the Crusader civs could have to a degree, but still only within reason

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Most this all the stuff that has been said in the past still applies.

I also see no reason to spread crusader knights rven further. Especially britons shouldnt have it as you give an archer civ a cavalry unit which could easily beat other civs cavaliers. Civ doesnt need butfs

Furthermore, no reason to give allies the ability to create serjeants/tk at increased cost. Simply wouldnt br used.

Furthermore your new teuton tcs crap all over lithuanians but, even if you are buffing that. Its still not even close and creates overlap. 12 range tc is completely unnecessary, especially when you consider that they require no stone to repair, which means you could easily use these as cheap castles.

@TheConqueror753 basically summed up my thoughts nicely

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no. this leads to people walling in docks etc. would completely break water meta

why??

again why?

so getting the Portuguese UT for free?

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No offense, but these these changes donā€™t seem to be well thought through.
For example: You wanna remove Paladin and Cavalier for Britons, Sicilians and Teutons and give them Crusader Knights, however how are they supposed to be balanced?
Britons & Sicilians have Cavalier while Teutons have Paladin. You either give Britons and Sicilians great Cavalry, or Teutons get way worse Cavalry, depending on how the final stats of the crusader would be.
If the overall power of a Crusader is about on the level of a cavalier, Teutons go from having argueably one of the best Paladins in the game to generic Cavalier-equivalent. Personally I feel that having Paladin is crucial for Teutons. What should they get, to compensate for this massive nerf? If you asked me would I rather have +2MA Paladins or more TC range and +1PA on Barracks Iā€™d choose Paladin no doubt.

Also you take away Paladin from one of the historic Paladin civilizations. If you read about historic medieval Paladins, you will mostly be reading about stuff in Germany and France, with a few other lands like Hungary, Moravia (Czech republik - Bohemians), etc. sprinkled in.

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the stats would be the one from the editor based on prior posts of his
base 100 hp, 4/4 armor, 18 attack. (After upgrades, 120 hp, 7/8 armor, 22 attack).

which means britons go from 120 hp, 2/2, 12 attack cavaliers to 100 hp, 4/4, 18 attack CK. totally a buff.
Sicilians go from 140 hp, 2/2, 12 attack cavalier to 120 hp, 4/4, 18 attack units. also a buff.

Teutons become a classic case of ā€œit dependsā€. they gain more attack, and more PA, but lose 60 hp.

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Thanks for clarification, didnā€™t see that. I assumed if the Crusader Knight would be implemented into basic random map, it would probably get a stats adjustment.
Personally if I were tasked to implement it, I would tone down the basic stats and give Teutons a bonus on it.
However I want teutons to keep Paladin, Iā€™d rather give a similar spec Paladin equivalent to Persians, Huns and Cumans.

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yeah, i see no reason to change Teutons.
especially seeing as this leaves them without a good early imp cavalry unit (an upgrade that adds 2/2 armor and 8 base attack to a unit canā€™t be cheap), leaving them with knights until they can afford the CK upgrade.
furthermore

this is just busted. 12 range town centers that cost only wood to repair? low damage or not thatā€™s a lot of map they can easily control for cheap

There is only one reason for all these changes - itā€™s because this fits his playstyle. who cares about balance.

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He wants to play his Healfortreess Strategyā€¦ which looks something like thisā€¦

It must of have taken ages to get there.

image

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Oh iā€™m well aware what he wants to do. No reason to change the entire civ though just to cater to him and whatever small group of people like his playstyle.

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Of course. If it was implemented I want the Persians civ bonus to continuously spawn fullly IMP War Elephants for free from the town center. Starting in Dark age.

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Why though? I sort of understand that you have a thematic/historical reason for suggesting them for Teutons and Sicilians. If you think they specifically represent knights of the Teutonic Order, then (from a purely historical point of view) Britons shouldnā€™t have them, but if they represent knights from any nation involved in the Crusades, then if Britons have them so should several other civs.

I find this an odd issue to focus on for regional skins. You take issue with a European Christian knight having arguably* slightly the wrong type of cross on his shield, while there are, for example, Persian and Cuman Paladins with Fleurs-de-Lis on their caparisons.

(*The Teutonic Order cross is so bland that Iā€™m not actually confident that it would be wrong.)

I donā€™t really understand whatā€™s going on here. There will be very few games where itā€™s possible to get to this situation. (Was this a free-for-all?) But it also doesnā€™t look useful. Why couldnā€™t his opponent(s) just ignore the Castle and go around it?

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Op just makes the strat work vs the weaker oponents

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Tbh I dont like all these changes that are done just because you think it would be cool rather than it making sense

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Not just 12 range TCs. He wants to add 7 range to the TC to give it 13 range the same as Teutonic castles. That way besides Turk bombard cannons the only siege he has to worry about is trebs. He just wants more time to focus on important things like placing tcs and farms in a pretty square instead of actually fighting. He wants an invincible base to get time to build a huge post imp army without harassment to steam roll crappy opponents

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