Then there’s no reason to balance around the uneducated crowd
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You are right. Cause the buffs intention was not to make ETK into a paladin, but make the unit less useless when countered with the correct counter unit. Which is archers. Just it’s speed and cost are making it currently just useless. Now it is “less” useless but still to be countered by the counter. I wasn’t actually supposed to even give it that much speed but the more I think about it, not necessarily that bad of a move either. The speed buff was to make them still be slower than other infantry but atleast a little bit better at trying to force fights since cause little less kiteable and able to more quickly reach a stationary target. Didn’t want to overdo things obviously.
Archers are still to be an effective counter but with reduced effectiveness compared to before. It might make a difference or not, is why I came to advertise it here so people might play around with it and get a feel and give their opinion. x] Atleast this way we can forget theorycrafting suggestions and actually test them.
Edit: omg I should get out of bed and from phone to my laptop feels like I’m repeating the same line many times redundantly. 
Suggestion:
Change:
Ironclad: Siege units get +4 melee armor
to
Ironclad: Siege units get +4 pierce armor (or +2+2)
That way your teutons protect your siege and your siege protects your teutons. At a high cost and with lots of micro.
The slow push forward should be the teuton theme.
Siege units are already resistant to Pierce damage, Ironclad is there to make them resist getting attacked by Cavalry, because Teutons is supposed to be a slow civ.
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Melee armor is much better since all siege units are weak to melee specifically, not pierce.
Unless sitting in castle range. But that’s not something an onager or scorpion should even be shooting at.
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But your teuts and more armored inf ( Barracks units +1 armor (starting from Castle Age) )are supposed to protect your siege as you advance slowly. They are a defensive civ.
Since you lack elite skirm, bracer, arb, thumb ring, light cav; the only way to counter ranged is with siege.
Funnily units just sometimes get through to hit those siege weapons. 
The melee armor is better for every situation, except vs mangudai and building arrows. (halving mangudai damage since it’s regular attack would do nothing anymore, only the bonus damage, is substantial, however mentioning any other ranged unit here is pointless since they aren’t countering siege to begin with.)
E: and for the record, I don’t think teuton siege should be countering the mangudai >:D
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Indeed this very much.
Regarding the melee armor: That could be borderline op for halbediers since the best way to upgrade them (apart from the unit upgrade itself, of course) is melee armor which makes them so much more durable vs cavalry and I can image that 5 melee armor halbs would be the ultimate cav counter in the game l. I guess that’s why they didn’t introduce a stacked armor across the ages such as Malians have with pierce, for example.
And I don’t think they necessarily are a late-game-only civ. I just played them on Hideout and tried out a build that resembles that Malay strategy on arena where you go pop 20 feudal and put down a lot of farms. These are sooo cheap for Teutons that I managed to reach castle age under 18 minutes, put down 2 TCs immediately while being able to afford constant knight production from 1 stable, get a lot of upgrades and some scorpions. Seems like a really strong strategy, especially since the best counter to that would be monks (if you have redemption) but Teutons have more conversion resistence than other civs. Might be a bit of niche strategy and probably only useable on hideout but I think it shows how powerful Teutons can be in castle age.
All the champion player has to do is attack from two different directions and that fight would have turned out very differently. Like I said, equal micro, not only player chasing the other brainlessly to their death.
That said, my point was not that Champions are currently an effective counter for archers, but rather that they sit in a narrow niche, especially since Champions, unlike Archers, have no hard trash counters. Make them even slightly more durable in both melee and pierce and suddenly they become the most effective unit in the game.
Again, that’s wrong; Champions are also much more threatening while inside their base, as they do more damage to buildings and are more threatening per-gold. Especially since Teutonic Knights are weaker, per-cost, to archer fire than Champs. But even if they get inside the enemy base, you’re still not going to engage them with melee units, because that would be dumb.
After all, if this were true, you’d see players building TKs out of forward castles, since their speed is apparently only useful for reaching the enemy base. But they don’t, because it doesn’t work.
Buffing their speed does nothing without also buffing their pierce armor, and at that point you’ve got an uber-unit that can’t be killed by anything.
Whoops! Still, point stands.
yeah but champions don’t have the mobility of cavalry to flank arbs like that. And its unlikely you’ll see such an engagement.
no they don’t because their horrible speed can’t even catchup to villagers and leaves no room for maneuverability. Worthless base raiders as of now and also against military, they need the speed.
they have 2 pierce already with 100hp, they’ll be fine. With champion speed they’ll easily A tier UU
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Think, for a moment, about what this would actually accomplish. Champion level speed will not allow them to catch up to anything any more than they currently can. Not Champions, as they will move the same speed, not halberdiers, same reason, and certainly not paladins, which will remain far faster.
So against things they’re cost effective against, it clearly makes no difference, as that is the current response, as well.
And, against archers, without a pierce Armour upgrade, they would continue to have less effective health per gold. Against buildings, Champions will continue to be far more effective, as well. Combine these two factors, and it makes them clearly a bad choice for raiding inside the enemy’s base. Champions will accomplish far more, for far less. Paladins will accomplish even more Still.
With the recent bonus to Champion melee armor, they don’t even have the advantage of being cost-effective against paladins anymore, Champions now also trade cost-effectively, if only barely, with paladins.
So you can clearly see, even if their speed were equivalent, which, given the historic trend in bonuses with this game, would be highly unlikely, they would still remain less effective in every scenario, and still would not be built in any serious game. Certainly not a tier, as you claim.
And if a change doesn’t accomplish anything, why bother?
by your logic khmer Elephant speed is worthless and so is the persian mahout upgrade since it doesn’t make them faster than anything? There’s a good difference between uselessly slow and usable enough fast.
Again its your word vs mine, we wouldn’t know unless we see some change, so I’m resting this discussion
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Because elephants are countered by melee units, not archers.
This is in no way a your word against mine situation, you have absolutely no reason to believe what you’re saying is correct.
Seriously, dude, it’s okay to admit you’re wrong. Then we can work together to come up with a solution that will work.
They wreck every single melee unit and have a bad match-up vs 1 or 2 melee units, the speed helps against siege and also get to units raiding your base, speed is never bad.
How am I wrong when the only complaint about TK is their sluggishly slow speed that makes them bad in even match-ups that’s favorable to them? Like almost everyone agrees they should get a speed boost except the cultist fans who are obsessed with their crippling identity.
Yeah like what, TK building towers 11
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Elephants are easily countered by Scorpions, Arbalests, Halberdiers and Monks. Only one of those is a Melee unit.
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Everything else is irrelevant because of this. You can’t just ignore the existence of halberdiers, they are literally the most important unit to elephants in the game.
That is terribly circular reasoning. If you define their problem as being slow, then of course increasing their speed solves that problem. But their problem has never been being slow, it’s being ineffective. And, as I have clearly demonstrated, improving their speed will not change that, and therefore will not in any way make the unit viable.
As far as building towers are concerned, I believe I’ve clearly demonstrated a vast number of reasons why that would work, reasons which you have eloquently dismissed with The brilliantly Logical " I wouldn’t use it" .
If your only basis for your argument is feelings, you are not going to get very far.
The biggest counter to Elephants is Monks, not Halberdiers.
A civ with no Halberdiers but with Block Printing, Illumination and Theocracy, will have no trouble with Elephants.
And speed does little to nothing against those things, further proving my point.
I really don’t know what we’re arguing about here by now but okay, but its agreed by most players that Khmer elephants are scariest due to their speed even before their farm buff.
They are ineffective because they are slow. And no champions aren’t better than fast TK because you can’t afford double numbers every game because pop limit is a thing and you’re not goths to win with solo infantry. Your demonstration didn’t prove anything.
yeah because reducing the idea of spanish vills BBT spam to TK building keeps in a 1v1 and throwing away precious stone is a great strategy. There’s a reason towers aren’t used after feudal age. It’s a terrible idea that wouldn’t even improve TK as a individual unit.
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