So far we have come. Arena not worth enough as second most played map ever. Why not make your own game with all Arabia and your own civs that all have an eco bonus and early military bonuses just to have 50% winrate on Arabia. Or how about adding rng to this game to really achieve this goal. Something like roll a dice in before every game to win or to lose. Perfectly balanced as all things should be.
No intuition for game design or anything else, just the ability to interpret bad statistics, or at least try to, because interpretation without discussion of your data makes no sense.
Berbers are one of the worst Arena civs. Jonslow even has a meme about them, they are truely bad on this map, never would I nerf them. My argumentation was never about silly Winrates alone, is that so difficult to understand ?
Indians 8 games played, Berbers 12 games played, what you wanna do with these stats ? They are D or C-Tier arena civs evaluated by any pro who made a tier list on arena.
The teuton double armour buff made the already clearly S-Tier civ even better and that in a way that the civ is unchallenged with very few exceptions. Civ win the game. And the farming was made cheaper as well. All things you wanna have on Arena.
This bonus is so bad in any way imaginable. Stealing identity from their UU and of slavs UU in one strike. All just because they wanted finally silence on teutons. They would have given them v2 rockets and call it fitting just to have them off their list.
And then you argue its fitting they are slow and armoured ? But why did they then in the same patch increase the speed of teutonic knights and made them to sprinters ?
There is no vision behind, just buff them until some peope that are only interested in locking at tables of numbers are satisified.
Such a power creep bonus should not be distributed out of spite. The teutonic knight rush was already a threat since you have easy food eco and they are basically not very well counterable by monks. And if you want to buff their horses for lacking husbandry why then also give their infantry that bonus and why does this bonus to be repeated in imp so that your generic stable units suddenly contest boyars… It all doesnt make sense.
But yes I guess not before they are at 70% on Arabia then everything is fine with totally break a civ instead of fixing them.
Point me to where they have criticized the armor bonus other than the a youtube video when the balance was released and they hadn’t tested. Happy to be proven wrong if so. So you are saying a pros opinion when they haven’t tested the change is gospel?
LOL you were the one who brought it up and said 60% isn’t balanced twice. 60% win rate on arena is only on 1650+ so I used exactly what you used. Let’s go to Byzantines as well then given they have virtually the same pick rate and win rate. What is the Arena specific nerf that brings them down from 59% win rate but leaves their Arabia win rate of 49% unaffected. What about Britons - they are picked heavily and have a high win rate - should we nerf their archers based on Arena?
You are trying to balance around edge cases and use only numbers you like but ignore numbers that contradict your points. Your entire point is that they are too strong on Arena and point to the win rate as your evidence. Teutons are still weak against CAs and many archer civs - stop being dramatic
And TKs are not sprinters stop lying. They are at .8 speed and still easily kitable but are significantly more population efficient than champions if you want to go that direction. You still rarely see Teutonic champions as much as you see TKs if you go look at the actual games because they still have twice the armor
No intuition and game design lol - look back at yourself. OMG someone has a unit that is as good as another unit in a game with 30+ civs. There are not enough unit types for every unique unit to be the best at what they do. If we are going to argue that then the Frank Paladin or Lithuanian Heavy Cav can’t exist because they compete the Boyar. What is the solution for those two civs given they overlap with the Slavs? Lol
From another thread another idea to buff teutons in “the right way”:
Remove the current armor on Infatry and cav completely. Instead teutons spearmem and pikes gain +1 range.
This represent Swiss pike and landsknecht formation and has atleast some historical base.
Maybe remove the halbedier from their tech tree, since pikes are longer than halbs anyway. This would prevents the bonus to get out of hand in trash wars.
Since teutons are in need of a serious buff replacement for the borderline op current imba paladins, it should be fine to give them something equally good like this, but less boring free armor for everything.
Got a source for this? Teutons remain balanced winrate wise, both on ladder and in tournaments.
Usage wise they are also fairly middle of the road as well, nothing overpowered there.
Most games are ending before they even reach imp and 1v1 rarely sees the paladin hit the field anyway, so again i would love to see a source for teuton paladins being over powered beyond your own subjective feelings.
The civ teutons isn’t overpoerwred as a hold in winrates (thought I heard it is out of control on arena) , but any unit more powerful than FU paladins needs to be seroulsy investigated if it doesn’t disrupt the unit balance (not civ).
Fighting FU teutons is just too much now with their wide range of buffed armor to everything.
It doesn’t matter for 1v1 or pros, it does to the casual thought. I want to see teutons buffed in a different less power creepy way and uninspired (subjective) .
before they had two options knights + siege or pike + siege. now they have two options. knights + siege or pike + siege. and yet again how often do we actually see 1v1 games get to the paladin stage?
that +1 armor isn’t having that big of an impact
Yes, so I did say it’s a Knight/Paladin spam civ now, i.e. it’s a Knight-line spam civ, which is completely true if you look at any high level (or even low ELOs now) player play Teutons.
It’s rare that you get to the mid / late imperial to get Paladin in 1v1s and when you do I think most Teuton players prioritize Siege Onager first. The +2 MA to me was actually most felt with the Halbs vs. the Paladins given Halb + SO is what I most often see when using / playing against Teutons
The Teuton paladins aren’t even the strongest paladins. Lithuanians with two relics are just as strong + they have husbandry. Franks are quite close with the +HP and they also have husbandry. Even Cumans with +15% speed is somewhat debatable relative to the Teutons though I would still take the Teutons most likely
Given the rest of the Teuton roster is so gold intensive and there is little evidence that they are a problem, I don’t think there’s any need to change them at this point
I agree that they have been balanced in the wrong way, still weak in feudal and quite overwhelming for many civs in imperial age. But please, don’t bring Crenellations to castle age! Imagine in arena getting a castle on your face, then the player adds the techno. This would be instant GG. This can happen at any map.
I wish Teutons just get +1 melee armour for barracks and stable units in feudal age and that is… instead of the +1 in castle and +1 in imperial. This wouldn’t make scouts op cuz they would still die against pikes in the same number of shots.
In feudal, everyone has archers and I think Teuton player can’t spam to much because ranged units easily kills them also their opponent can advance to Castle Age in that amount of time. Biggest problem is you can’t micro easily vils to kill aggressors. But I think it is balanced in late game.
And is good to keep them weak against archers, and still weak in early ages, but just to give them some love there where they struggle more and has been nerfed when they lost the TC sight and towers were nerfed . They were strong in imperial age already.