Teutons change: Crusader Knight upgrade replaces cavalier - remove paladin plus other changes and some for a few different civs

Crusader_knight_aoe2de

image

TYPE

Cavalry

TRAINING TIME

30 seconds

STATISTICS

HIT POINTS

100

ATTACK

18

RATE OF FIRE

2

MELEE ARMOR

4

PIERCE ARMOR

4

ARMOR CLASSES

Cavalry

SPEED

1.2

LINE OF SIGHT

5

Special ability: unable to be converted


With this unit replacing the cavalier upgrade for Teutons it will go hand in hand with their crusader Deus Vult faith theme and will be all-round cooler to use.

Add the first scout upgrade - remove stable bonus - increase barracks bonus to +1/0 armor in castle age, +1/1 in imperial (+2/1 total)

The main features of the Teutons are their infantry, siege and defensive structure/boom potential- their cavalry can be powerful, but should not be their main feature - replacing the cavalier upgrade with crusader knight and removing paladin gives them a clear spike over the cavalier upgrade while not being so powerful as a paladin - that alongside with the addition of the scout light cavalry upgrade and the removal of the stable side of the bonus helps to keep the civ balanced while refocusing the bonus fully towards their infantry.


Additional ideas from previous threads + additions:

Imperial unique tech effects town centers
Or
Additional civ bonus: increases town center range by 3 in castle age. (Brings Teutons back to their roots in a balanced way)
Or
increases town center range by 3 upon reaching castle age and having a castle built or upon building a castle(both of these conditions would need to be reached for the range to be increased)

Imperial tech stone cost changed out for woodcost(like how Turks’ were changed)

Additional bonus: Garrisoned relics are visible.

Side-change:
Lithuanians :
unique tech adds +3 range and +2 attack to town centers to increase its viability as well as to differentiate it from the Teuton’s bonus.

Similar tech change:
Celts
unique tech ‘strongholds’ also effects town centers on top of their current effect towards castles.

(Part of this Idea seen somewhere)
Sicilians:
first crusade - spawns crusader knights instead of the serjeant
Sicilians also gain the crusader knight upgrade instead of cavalier similar to Teutons.
Or the first crusade is the only source of the crusader knight for sicilians - possible, but could be balanced another way - for instance - first crusade moved to imperial age, hauberk changed out for something more appropriate like donjons + 10 garrison space, +2 attack and +1 or 2 additional arrows and may garrison cavalry.

Incas:
Fabric shields mixed with their old tech
Effect:
+1/2 armor on kamayuks, slingers, eagles and increases eagle speed by x%(to that of a knight with husbandry after squires )

Team Bonus: farms, mills, mill upgrades and wheel barrel built/researched 100% faster

Andean Sling : switched out for a tech that increases villager and house armor by 2/2

Villagers effected by infantry upgrades starting in castle age(squires, arson)(which includes blacksmith infantry upgrades)


(Added from comment 78)

I’m thinking this for sicilians atm:

First crusade:

Increased cost,
Spawns non-elite Teutonic Knights,

Hauberk:

replaced with a donjon tech for +attack/more arrows/garrison space, and/or allows serjeants to repair siege

Cavaliers replaced with crusader knights upgrade.
Tech cost/research time to be balanced

This gives them an early (or late) unit to help vs melee types and to help vs trash if needed while giving a nod to history of them having the Teutonic Order garrisoned with them at some point.
As well as a fun crusader unit of their own for their ‘second crusade’.


However it may be more accurate to replace hauberk with ‘third crusade’ and spawn elite teutonic knights while keeping ‘first crusade’ the same as it is now.

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art220.htm

Petards doing x2 damage vs foundations in general would be a fun change as well as giving them a ‘faster moving’ elite upgrade perhaps which would increase their danger rating vs siege and unbuilt buildings as well as help in reaching fully built/defended castles.
(For all civs)

7 Likes

What happens when you upgrade to paladin?

You don’t - the removal of paladin(for Teutons)goes hand in hand with this

No. There are lots of cool units in the scenario editor, that does not necessarily mean they have any place in competitive place.

These units could be used in triggers in scenarios. A simple reskin mod would suffice. Teuton paladins are already some of the best paladins in the game. Their only weakness is that they lack husbandry.

In but in melee combat. Teutonic paladins are some of the best in the game.

4 Likes

image
thumb_i-am-the-priest-of-red-team-wololo-morchel-do-43342198

2 Likes

Apart from the fact that I’m pretty sure this isn’t your first thread posting these proposed changes, it’s a hard no basically for all of them.

Teutons are a balanced civ for open maps while being very strong on arena. Your changes would make them stronger on arena (except in some matchups where they need to go palas) and way worse on arabia.

I’m pretty sure the other times you proposed this, users told you it’s not balanced. You are making them immune to mangonel push. And no, don’t come up with “but you can use rams” like the last time you posted this: if someones is walled all he needs to keep rams out is one single mangonel

This is probably something that would be too strong in arabia late game where hussars raids matter a lot

… this feels just pointless

The tech is fine as it is, we don’t need extra tanky AND speedy eagles

7 Likes

Have you ever tried massing knights/massing units together to destroy tcs beyond cheaply using a small force alongside a mangonel or two?

Rams x archers?
Mass long swords?
I’m pretty sure there are many options beyond a mangonel push.

1 Like

With such high range tc no one would let you do that. All you need to is to have some walls.

Countered by two mangos

Countered by two mangos/some scorps

For that you have to:

  1. Have an opponent not to be walled
  2. Have an opponent not making units
    To hold that with extra range on tc

There’s a reason in castle you push with mangonels AND units. Your change makes the tc unpushable

There’s a reason those options are not meta. Ask around, ask pros if you want: no one will tell you that extra range on tca for free is balanced, especially not on a strong boom civ like teutons

Existence of possible counters does not equal non-existence of possible push methods.

Mangonel counters- a single petard - another mangonel, a single melee unit, well micro’d archers. The list goes on.

What matters is what both sides do to counter their counters to their counters.

But… they don’t have this “theme”. That’s something people came up with because the teutonic looks cool, and exclusively because of that.
I’d rather have teutons representing germans and not a meme crusader civ.

2 Likes

The Crusader Knight wears mostly plain, white robes and shield typical of crusading orders, with the black cross used historically by the Teutonic Knights and is visually similar to Ulrich von Jungingen but with a Visored bascinet

Judging by that, their origin is pretty much german or at the very least based from the Teutonic Knight order.

2 Likes

You are ignoring the fact that literally the counter doesn’t even cost half of your proposed push when it comes to your proposed tc change.
Your propose doesn’t make any sense and should never be implemented because it’s overpowered

2 Likes

Tying it to activate once the first castle is up after aging up to castle age is an option for middle-ground here. There are plenty of ways to balance it. Tho my opinion is that it’s fine to add upon simply aging up to castle, but again tying it to the building of a castle+ aging up to castle age is an option.

The goal of that change is to return the Teuton’s original bonus to them in a balanced format.

In your opinion, do you believe that the Lithuanian’s+ tc range is over-powered or under-powered?

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art220.htm

You can’t compare a bonus that comes for free with something that needs a castle AND a tech. The Liths tech is fine because no one will build a castle just to tech it because building a castle in early castle age three is just a waste of resources

@RadiatingBlade edit: Please stay on topic.

3 Likes

Teutons’ old bonus making a return to the civ in a balanced format and at the right age will be a good addition returning to where it belongs. Where, exactly, do you think it’ll be balanced? The middle ground I’m adding to the discussion is after the building of a castle and aging up to castle age.

@RadiatingBlade edit: Stay on topic and do not discuss moderator actions per the code of conduct.

The yeutons are based on the Germans with a nod Here and there to the crusader order. They do not represent the teuronic order only though and your changes are bad in so many ways

Just because you main Teutons doesn’t mean you have to break them for everyone else. We should be focusing more on nerfing the top civs, and buffing the bottom ones. Teutons fit into neither group and should be left alone. I also think that the Crusader Knight could just become an eventual regional style skin for Teutons and possibly some other civs, as well as a scenario editor unit.

4 Likes

Nowhere. Leave the civ alone, it’s fine as it is

@RadiatingBlade Be respectful towards other forum users per the code of conduct.

This will not make them worse on arabia - it will balance them out on arabia and in some ways better overall while removing both the stable defense bonus and paladin while improving/rounding-out their scouts followed by the improved power over cavalier via the crusader knight while reducing their overall knight-line potential by reducing their end-game powerspike paladin+2 armor as well as their castle age knight+1 armor.

On the other hand trading out their castle age offense for defense like they were originally meant to from dark age but introduced instead and balanced in castle age.

@RadiatingBlade edit: Please stay on topic.