The Burgundians still OP

Hi everyone!

Last patch Burgundians got 2 nerfs; they nerfed their eco discount from 50% to 40%, and they nerfed their UU attack charge bonus. However, it is actually seems those changes are not enough because Burgundians still so strong to deal with.

The 40% discount for eco is still so powerful especially with having eco techs available age before, from the beginning reducing only by 10% won’t make that change anyway and it would be better to make it 33% or 25%.

On the other hand Coustillier is really strong, even after they reduced the charge this unit is still problematic, I don’t know what to say or what to do? They also have very low creating time, maybe the unit should have more creating time as another nerf?

The last thing that I would mention is the 50% stable discount techs with Cavalier in castle. People may say they have no bloodlines, but this is the wrong way to look and judge things here.

Cavalier upgrade with Burgundians cost 150f, 150f, but you shouldn’t look at it as a cavalier upgrade with no bloodlines, you should look at it a normal knight with bloodlines +2free attack.

Bloodlines cost 150F, 100G. The Burgundians stable discount for cavalier gives you bloodlines+2attack with only 150f, 150g, which is really unfair and huge advantage especially with the strong eco that Burgundians have already, this is regardless the instantly Paladin upgrade once you hit imp with also 50% discount which no civ can do.

IMHO Burgundians eco, stable discount should get nerfs next patches.

What do you think guys?

Many greetings

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I agree with only stable discount.
And I also want to increase Cavalier upgrade cost a bit 300f/300g → 400f/350g

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The problem is that as long as they have this strong eco it doesn’t matter what costs nerfs you give them because they will always have a strong eco that support them to get any tech and afford them to do anything. Nerfing the eco discount will still needed.

Many greetings

Requiring more resource to upgrade your stable units is also an eco nerf. Because if you still prioritize your eco techs, you may not be able to have Cavalier. So you have to sacrifice an eco tech like Two-Man Saw or Gold Shaft mining to afford Cavalier. That’s an eco nerf.

You mixed things here. 40% discount is still a major discount, this is already the problem because with this discount they still can do it because it is already cheap. You think being greedy with the 40% will make them easier to punish them but unfortunately this is not the case, there is no sacrifice here my friend because everything is easy with them.

Not denying that. But

Not really. They are average until Cavalier comes in. After that they are too strong as they have a very good eco behind it. But without bloodline they are again weaker than most of the other cavalry civs after mid-imp.

I won’t mind another eco nerf. But stable should be priority. And definitely not both. Let’s go one step at a time.

Cavalier upgrade cost increase and stable discount decrease to 40%.
Castle Age
Current costs 150f/150g on Cavalier, 75f/25g on LC, 75f on Husbandry.
New costs 240f/210g on Cavalier, 90f/30g on LC, 90f on Husbandry.
Additional resource 120f/65g
Imperial Age
Current costs 650f/375g on Paladin, 250f/300g on Hussar
New costs 780f/450g on Paladin, 300f/360g on Hussar
Additional resource 180f/135g

But everything you say is just an assumption in the case of a price of Cavalirr upgrade will be increased and I am telling you it will never happen because you will nerf many other civs by this decision. Also 40% discount for stables techs will still strong, you are just repeating the same mistakes that devs did when they thought 40% discount eco techs would make a difference which is not unfortunately. IMHO both of the eco discount and stable discount should be 33% as a start.

After archer nerf, there is a good chance cavalry will be nerfed next.

TBH with you, I don’t see both nerf is happening at the same patch.

I doubt that because the xbow upgrade and arbs upgrade were so cheap for a ranged units. Cavalier upgrade is not expensive right, but at the same time it is not that big deal in imp unlike what Burgundians have with their 50% discount for Paladin and Cavalier upgrade in castle age before it.

But it should be, because Burgundians are really problematic.

The problem is that the devs are really slow to make changes, they are so slow. It takes years to balance a civ for them, they should do more changes in each patch and more updates for the balance, and those changes should be more effictive.

burgundians are sitting around a 51-53% winrate right now. not sure why they need nerfs.


Whenever I see people put the stats as a main or only reference to balance the civs I remember that proverb that says: “When a wise man points at the moon, the imbeciles examines the finger”.

The gameplay and the general balance and general system in the game have many effects. Also pick rates, maps, conditions and the other civ that you were up against. However, in most cases Burgundians do well, like many other strong civs.

Many greetings


The economy, not Stable, is what makes the Burgundians strong.
The difference from -50% food to -40% food is not significant. It’s not a very effective change and loses the 50% that is a beautiful number.

Perhaps the economy techs could go back to -50% food, but when they are researched earlier, the effects will only provide 50% until reaching the age they originally are in. Then, maintain the bonus of -50% cost of Stable techs.

So let’s look at this.
across all maps they are played 2.6% of the time. nothing earth shattering there.
Winrate is 50.46% across all maps.

thats 1500+. the top roughly 2.5% of teh playerbase. if not smaller.

so instead of quoting Proverbs and trying to obscure stuff, why don’t you show us WHERE they are Overpowered.

give us actual data that backs that up. Where are they overperforming? where are they too strong? You are the one making the claim, YOU BACK IT UP.

Are Burgundians still a solid civ? absolutely. But nothing i have seen says they need nerfs.


No not only the economy, the 50% discount on stables and also the UU are all still problematic.

The devs nerfed 2 things in Burgundians in last patch because of how strong they are, the problem we are discussing here is that unfortunately those "nerfs are not enough. From 50% eco discount to 40% is it really a big deal? No, they still strong.

so you have facts and data to back up that claim.
something to show they overperforming compared to other civs?
some tournament where they are overperforming?
some particular map where they are overperforming?
anything at all? besides you know. just your opinion without anything to back it up?

a civ can be strong without needing nerfs.


My suggestion stated above clearly implies that I don’t think the Stable techs and UU are such big problems. The former makes the Burgundian cavalry strong in the mid game but weak in the late game, which is a fair design. The latter has just got a nerf recently, still needs time to check the impact.


exactly - Burgundians may have cheap cavalier, but they pay for that advantage with a lack of Bloodlines. at the end of the day their units are not going to be as Efficient as other civs they are a powerspike civ.

if they are overperforming (and i agree they are strong, but i don’t know if they are overperforming, we haven’t had tournaments or anything yet to show that, and the data doesn’t support it), then yes, they should be toned down, and I think nerfing the stable discount would be a great way to do that. by making the stable discount 33% you now have to pay more for Cavalier + Husbandry setting you back a little bit more, and Paladin in Imp is actually pretty expensive. meanwhile the civ is on a timer

Personally, I think this should be the last way.

The bonus that Stable techs cost -50% is not OP, and echoes the Dravidians’ bonus that Barrack techs cost -50%.
I think it’s a pretty elegant design, and one day we might see a bonus that Archery Range techs cost -50%, maybe for a current archer civ or for a new civ.

Anyway, more importantly, I believe the strength of the Burgundians mainly comes from the fact that they can get better gathering efficiency earlier and cheaper, and I think reducing the efficiency gotten earlier is the most efficient way.

The main point is what the called a “nerf” is not actually a real nerf. 10% deduction will change nothing, 40% discount is still strong. Is really 10% for you a good change?! Because I don’t see it that way especially with available eco upgrades age before.

Many greetings