The cost of fire lancer needs to be reduced

After the update in January, for every fire lancer produced, it consumes 120 food, 20 gold, and 20 wood, which was acceptable in the previous version with the spirit way. But now, after the landmark victory modification, the fire lancer can no longer be used to snipe landmarks, and can only be mixed in the troops to provide buff to other units, in this case, the consumption of 120 food 20 wood 20 gold is very expensive.

So, I think the Fire Spear should be reduced to 80 food, 20 wood, 20 gold like initial version, or 100 food, 20 gold (considering that wood is very scarce in some maps).

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whaaat?

FL is buffed and you want it to be buffed again?
…

It should cost more gold. Food is already disposable and with imperial academy you are getting 8 gold back. It should cost 100 food, 40 gold and 20 wood.

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They were buffed regarding movement speed which is change they needed as raiding unit but they still cost 2x of horsemen and are slower, less value with main army and raiding is same or worse. Top of that costs 1800 resources to unlock so yes they need to be buffed.

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Sigh… look up aoe4world.com games of crackady? And beasty and marinelord playing yuan dynasty china…they have standardized the build as the first upgrade after reach Imperial. Fire lancers are very strong and do not cost twice that of horsemen? And like someone mentioned when you consider late game food to be free? 40w and 20g is veey very cheap for a unjit you’re gonna run left to right to left across enemy base clapping 4+villagers per pop and for him to chase you indefinitely unless hes mongols or china as well in yuan dynasty, bc you’re not catching 1.87 movement speed with anything that would kill a fire lancer.

Anywho fire lancer have already heen promised a buff… unless they renege…

The only true counter to fire lancers are stonewalls and strong!! Static defensive (keeps garrisoned TCs* springald bombards towers*).

And laslty fire lancers are absolutely good in battle once you reach Imperial and they give your other melee units the 20% attack speed buff when they die. Going spears fire lancers will eat any cavalry composition your any throws at you. Going spears fire lancers bombard NOBs will delete ALLL melee composition your enemy throws at you voth cost effectively and powerfully. If you’re RICH fire lancers knights hand cannoners/grenadiers will literally eat a hole thru everything.

Fire Lancers and knights in ming dynasty have the second most hp of any knights in game (2nd only to french), after the lancers pop, the attack speed buff will cause the knights to hit so damn fast and the lancers/knights will force opposing units into a clump which favors grenadiers splashing â– â– â– â–  to death, meanwhile HC keeping your dps honest overhead!!

There isnt another composition in game that is stronger on paper.

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that s booooshhhiiit …

literally the last beasty chinese game using the twitch finder on aoe4.world.com???

Do I have to do more??

Keep in mind this isn’t a 40min game fire lancers appearance??

found another from top player? So I do more booooooshiit???

We can keep doing this booooshit with top level conqueror 3 status players?? How many more do we need to get the idea across that just MAYBE…fire lancers MIGHT BE a thing??

one correct I NEED to make! YES when food is effectively free late late late game fire lancers cost THRICE that of horseman (40w 20g compared to 20 w), however argue the 40w and 20g is extremely cheeap when given WHAT the fire lancer is capable of; throwing sets of 10-20 40w’s and 20g’s to kill clumps of villagers and occupy enemy army and APM; I think that’s worth being 3 times the cost of horseman which in the same case (- yuan dynasty) would have the same movement speed and be less effective at killing and burning enemy production.

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3 out of 9999999 games… booshhiittt…

compare to the normal horseman, they short with 2 armors, no bonus attack to archers. slower speed, cost more, hard to unlock. later appreace in game.

They are garbage in any normal fight. They are only good at against man at arms in late game with proper micros. As long as you put some spearman in the army, FL are just useless. It been countered by horseman, spearman, knights, and all kind of ranges since they got 0 armors without upgrades.

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We have to spend more time reading carefully what ppl say??? My whole premise started from that of a high level gameplay??? So who gives a ■■■■ of the 99999999 ppl dont use Fire lancers? Are those 999999999 ppl good?? Do they know how to play China at a high level??? Why would I reference those 99999999 ppl for anything else than “pick rates” or some BS like that?

P.s. horsemen don’t counter fore lancers bc horsemen don’t brace therefore will get popped and splashed next fire lancers have a faster attack speed (1.62 vs 1.75). Lastly horseman of non chinese yuan dynasty or mongols will NOT catch the fire lancers

I see you’re still trying to somehow justify the trashlancers. When they were not nerffed player like beastyqt called them glorified scouts and demolished them with split micro. Do you know why pro ppl are using them rn? Its not because they might be good, but because they’re experimenting with them.

All those clips are when china has already reached imperial age alongside with late game economy. Firelancers are not usable in castle age due to high cost of unlocking them and high cost of making them.

You once had argument “but mix them with lancers to get tankiness” which sounds great idea on the paper, but when you run with FL + Lancer comp together it leaves firelancers behind the lancers following by that they won’t get effective charge splash dmg at all or very minimal. How do I know this? Because I was curious and did it and it was horrible experience.

I have also faced firelancers time to time and they have never achieved anything other than die.

They got essentially nothing out of the changes other than minor buff to their speed but nothing that makes them better than horseman.

Each time there is new patch or something gets changed pro players will pick up on the changes and experiment with them not just once or twice but multiple games to see what extend the unit can be used. What ever they see successful tournament play I doubt it, because lets face it the spirit way buff + minor movement speed buff ain’t that great to justify the 1800 unlock cost especially if china is not holding 3 relics to get pagodas running and extra 5% from ancient techs.

Sure like I have said in the past they can get kills on villagers when they’re clumped up but so can knights/lancers with more effective charge than FL but those are more expensive units, but they also have vastly more use than FL. If you think you can magically hope to achieve god tier connections with the splash is enough to justify the 160 price tag on unit, 1800 resources to unlock then sure keep making them.

2 Likes

…this why it’s hard to take anything you say seriously…

Did I say castle HAS TO BE when they are used???

DID I REALLY SAY IMPERIAL AND YOU SOMEHOW ERECTED A STRAWMAN TO DISPUTE??? Also in one of the clips the china player is still in Castle.

They told you this??? 3 weeks after Fire lancer patch came out and these pros are still experimenting with fire lancers??? STOP BEING ABSURD! Beasty has flat out said that Fire lancers are viable in Imperial??? Do I also got to pull Fire lancer use in tournament? Are we gonna say that’s experimental too…

Blatant lie… lancer/knights will target few units and overkill the targeted villagers?? How the ■■■ would even begin to image this stupid idea that FL would perform LESS effectively at a clump at killng of villagers compared to the same number of lancer/knights???

In conclusion as usual you REFUSEEEEE to interact with the actual data presented and quickly dismiss actual data??

These words back at you.

Beastyqt, demuslim and kaup clips all are in imperial age. So which clip is castle age? If I recall correctly you go around accusing ppl lying / falsifying stuff but question now is. Why are you giving missinformation?

Seems like having conversation with you is not possible so once again I wish you best of luck with your laddering and games and I hope you also reach conqueror this season like you did in last season. You’ve been doing great glhf

I was WRONGGGG. You see how ez it is to state I’m wrong? I was WRONG the 3 clips are in Imperial, i clearly was mistaken… notice how your one take away from everything i said was to correct how i was wrong ro suggest 1 of the clips were taken from castle?? You side step my whole argument to make this one point?

As usual you like to state your opinion then NOT interact with the ideas that oppose yours. Notice your tactics.

Tou state your opinion and reasons then i come along and state my opinions that i think negates your opinions. Then you rebuttal my rebuttal…by ignoring my examples looking for tangential errors and resort to personal attacks…atypical of a guy that can’t hold a dispute with content relevant to the debate. What does my rank and lack of conquer state matter in this talk about the price of fire lancers???

You previously agreed in a related topic that late game Imperial (as shown in those 3 clips only 30ish minutes into game), food production gets so stable and abundant that its almost as if the unit dont require food to produce them. Yes at that point the costs of fire lancers are effectly 40w and 20g, cost of horsemen are 20w and lancers/knights 120g! The first 2 units trains in only 22s and are relatively cheap compared to the cost of knights. If you’re in Yuan dynasty all 3 units move at 1.87 tiles/s or faster.

So in the Imperial relatively stable food economy fire lancers are:
Trained fast- 22s just like horsemen
Low in relative cost- 40w 20g vs knights at 120g but more expensive than horsemen at 20w
Move fast- 1.87 tiles/s which is as fast as horsemen without mongol movment speeds or yuan dynasty speed buffs
Demolishes siege- in Imperial fire lancers have +20 dmg vs siege which ADDS to their splash dmg with NO DROP OFF (go check that out).
Excellent at raiding ESPECIALLY with the nerf to static defenses.
Also they heal and attack faster if any one of them dies near the pack.
Oh they have a higher attack speed than horsemen at 1.62s intervals.

So how exactly are you rating this unit as TRASH? maybe you meant trash unit since it costs so lil gold?

When did I personally attacked you? I only wished you best of luck with your laddering adventures in hopes you would reach same achievement as last season, but when we’re on this topic. Do I have to dig around and find all the times how you called me liar or someone else? U should know thats more of personal attack than wishing someone best of luck

Only reason why I responded was because of your ridiculous claims and nothing else.

Firelancers costs 120 food which is still 40 higher than horsemen. You really think that 50% more in terms of food cost doesn’t affect economy any way?? Especially when the unit dies faster than horseman. Yes you can reach point where you can spam firelancers all you want, but you’re investing more to food economy than you would with alternative. Heck you can reach point where you can spam lancers from x amount of stables with enough economy, but I can tell you rn its not super viable if game goes to throwing units at opponent like late game nowdays is. Even if you spam lancers for raiding and as main army and even if your KDR is 2-4 and opponents is 0.5 to 1 you can still get overwhelmed by cheap trash units.

Because you think that FL do not burden your economy that much here is some numbers. Constant rate of FL from 20 stables player would need 234 villagers gathering resources (assuming the tool doesn’t count the economy upgrades) meanwhile horsemen would only require 176 with quick math thats 25% more economy required. Obviously no one is going to spam FL from 20 stables like they would with horsemen but it still gives very clear indicator that unit that has overall less value than horseman they burden the economy way more than they should.

Throwing waves after waves of trash units is the meta rn. Its much more cost effective from every stand point to use horseman over FL UNLESS player is actually getting lot of good connections out there before losing bunch of FL. At later stage of game its important to disrupt opponents economy and FL should fill this role but whats the point of unit that just dies to arrow fire from outposts / keeps or simply gets completely countered by like 0.5 ratio of spearmen? Yet alone the fact that horsemen can just chase them away and kill them.

Also each time you stop to torch something, you’re giving opponent chance to catch up so getting something like one or two farms at those stages is not really a big deal what you’re looking to achieve with niche unit like FL is to trade cost effectively and cause enough dmg. Then if we compare them to mangudai that cannot kill buildings but they essentially does same thing as FL is intended to do which is disrupt economy and kill villagers. They are several times better than FL even tho they can’t deal with buildings or siege at same level yet they’re more useful with main army than FL is especially if opponent manages to create choke points and stick bunch of spears on top of siege then FL has no value.

FL is like gambling. Player makes them in hopes of getting value out of them but when base is properly defended then they do nothing but die and lose value. Even 1 keep is enough to shut down 10-15 FL.

Only quoting this so it wont become mass quote post. You ask me how I rate unit trash. Simply. Its trash when you got option to go alternative that is cheaper and does the same role same way and can actually contribute to fighting with main army.

First issue with firelancers is that they’re not viable at any way to go during castle. 1800 investment to unlock yuan is too much.

Then when going for FL with stable economy you’re delaying Ming dynasty which is far better option than Yuan. With simplified logic we could say its 10 more population to your army. Don’t get me wrong I love Yuan movement speed, but as of it is now Ming is still superior choice.

Then Firelancers I do agree that if you get LUCKY and find location to get perfect connection they can kill 5 or 10 workers fast, but again the investment to do this with unit that costs 160 resources 100% more than horseman and additional cost of 1800 resources to use means they cannot be used during castle age and they’re supposed to enter field during castle age, but only way to achieve them without shooting yourself to leg is in imperial when the economy is high which again delays Ming or is less army and because they enter field during imperial age where almost always opponent is in equal terms of economy. (meaning they might got multiple TC’s / high villager production rate) Raiding like getting 5-10 villager kills IF player is lucky. Is just too much of gamble to put any value on them

Then the siege argument. They do kill siege fast and has splash but do you know what kills them as fast as FL? Lancers or Knights. They actually do similar dmg to siege ofc not splash. And be serious now? How many times you got possibility of actually landing splash to siege when the FL AOE radius was nerffed in past and made smaller? Yes obviously they can be used to kill siege but at that point you’re choosing to make unit that has heavy rng element on its side. It might get you value worth of getting, but 9/10 times it won’t and becomes just dead weight.

Then like I said horseman are cheaper and deal with siege less effective than FL, but HM got ranged armor and they actually counter ranged units well and they’re also faster than FL alongside the fact that they also can be used to torch down farms or low priority targets. With 10FL you can get 20 HM which are way better in any situation and if you just look to sent them to opponents base and cause havoc its better sent them in one group at first then split to multiple locations which is where HM is better than FL. FL needs to be stick together to maximize their value which also is weakness because if they get caught they die and you lose your investment.