True, but it still indicates a trend. 53% winrate is pretty good.
Look at the data trend. They havent received any buffs so their winrate should be mostly static. Go look at winrares the last few patches
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You unfortunately misunderstood me because you didn’t take my full sentence. The correct quote should include “In castle age”. 
In Castle Age, Mongols have the most options in the stable with Tatars and Cumans (“co-richest”). “Better than Persians”, because Mongols have got FU knights and camels, besides the strongest Steppe Lancer in the game and even the strongest light cav. (except in melee after the Bulgarian’s castle unique tech, hard to get before at least mid-castle age). And that, for a civ. not even labelled “cavalry civilization”, like for instance the Persians.
And that’s all without even considering heresy -which the Persians lack-! It last saved Viper in one mind-blowing AoElympics game (see https://youtu.be/xW8SqnmmL4g?t=1731, [reads twitch chat: “thank god Mongols got heresy, huh?”, on which he answers:] “Yea, without heresy, [I] would have been super-dead.”).
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That’s not true - changes to other civilizations affect win rates for civilizations that have not been directly changed. Additionally, they could have been affected by the melee pathfinding changes or other general tweaks
In terms of sample size, look at the past three patches where they are 50% or above which is something like 400-500 games. That suggests Cumans have been in a consistently good place. There’s not much volatility
I’m sorry but there is no point using low or mid elo games to increase sample size. Including bad data to increase sample size is not helpful. We can look at trends over the course of multiple patches to get a better sense of balance rather than adding useless data points
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I wouldn’t really call it struggling. They have been within a reasonable range of 50% the past few patches - not everything will be exactly 50% sadly. That being said, I do think a samurai cost reduction is warranted
They won’t have nearly as big an impact though as changes to your own civ.
Mangudai are late-castle at best. In no way Mongol castle age is good tbh.
So you looked at the Persian stable, then at the Mongol one, decided that Mongols were somehow better than Persian, AND you didn’t look at the Cuman one, which is the Mongol one but with palas, faster producing hussar and SL, and with all armour upgrades, at the cost of no heavy camel (but they have halbs) and less HO on light cav/SL (but armour is better anyway). What an enlightened take.
Quality source indeed. Now go on his overview of the Franks (one the worst civ ever in their AOC incarnation) and try to find where he says they suck because of their bad navy.
Another way you can put it: remember when they nerfed Aztecs? Were they right to nerf their production bonus from 15 to 10% or should they have nerved their naval tree even more?
One more point: Cuman were nomads that lived hundreds of km away from the see, and unlike the Mongols they never went so far in their conquest as to need a navy (unliek the Mongols who tried to invade Japan). So just like say, Frank archers are just as bad as in history, so is Cuman navy.
Given how much time people spend crying about eagles, I suspect most players don’t make stone walls anyway 11
Fortunately they do get them.
Yeah, nothing screams “not a feudal age civ” as much as a bonus that gives you a 10 villager lead, along with some defensive utility that can allow the player to go toe to toe with an early castle age opponent. And of course, rams.
Bruh, it’s not how you’re supposed to use it. Towers or archers will complement the rams much better than a douche. I won’t say it’s easy, but it’s fair as this strat can be game-winning.
I wouldn’t say it will them make OP, but that it shouldn’t be decided based on the belief that a civ needs to just spam its UU all game long.
If we are playing the “but AoEstats said so” game, then I wonder why they always are under 50% when played by players under 1000 ELO, lose early and then become average when used by more experienced player, and are almost never below 50 when used above 1600 ELO? It’s almost as if novice player fail to use their unique attributes well and as they get better they learn how to use them, funny right?
Heresy is going to matter like once in a blue moon, while the Persian knight bonus is basically half the Lith relic bonus against archer civs.
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Summary
For the unfortunate case I’ve been unclear, third and last try: I very strongly believe the Mongol stable is better than the Persian one in castle age. See for the original post The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis and for the second post The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis. I do my research, I know my stuff.
For complete disclosure, I also read Cysion’s text about the Franks in the past. Who isn’t interested in knowing what he thinks ? A shame he is mostly a reader though (cf. https://www.aoezone.net/threads/are-there-really-any-devs-around.165629/#post-668574).
There is now one third of the users in this thread who have expressed outright support for the idea of the elite kipchak getting a careful and reasoned buff of +1 atk or something similar, which is very nice in my view. Me, for starters, but who am I?
Much more importantly @walkop (obviously, as it was his idea to begin with, mine was originally bracer), (last supported here: The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis, “I’m still in favor of +1 to all Cuman CA in Imperial Age”); @LyricLight76377 (The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis, “kipchaks need 1 more dmg”); @Pulikesi25 (The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis, “it might be good to give a small buff”); @CheshireWig3203 (The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis, “[kipchaks] have no damage output in imp”); @UncannyPlayer22 (The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis, “Elite Kipchak needs something like +1 attack to make it more impactful late game”) and @phoenix1089 (The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis, “the only reason kipchaks need a dmg buff is due to”).
@JoJo9942 liked my last post arguing for the said buff, so I suppose his state of mind shouldn’t be too far apart of mine on this question.
Others, without directly writing a comment in this thread, shared their support through a like, for instance @TougherTrack508 to name one.
And others don’t see it as too big of a change, like @CactusSteak2171, who wrote something with which I totally agree: “I wouldn’t say [+1 atk to the elite kipchak] will them make OP, but that it shouldn’t be decided based on the belief that a civ needs to just spam its UU all game long.”
Others are in a comparable position (cf. The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis and The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis).
I also agree with @Lonezwiebel when he says that “Kipchaks carry Cumans like Mangudai Mongols.” and “Like every player, they play with Cumans, they go for Kipchaks, more than Knights and Paladin and that tells a lot.” (The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis), which is precisely why I’m focused on the kipchak.
Perhaps we could all agree that it’s worth giving it a try? The elite kipchak would have 6+3 atk for his main arrow, only one without bad accuracy. For the very remote possibility that the experiment nonetheless became an absolute catastrophe, changing it back is still possible. 
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Totally agree with this sentiment. I’d prefer if much more risk was taken with balance changes - current changes are really slow, and balance changes are easy to revert.
I honestly don’t know whether kipchak need a buff. I haven’t played with them much. Personally I think exchanging chemistry for bracer sounds like the most interesting way to buff them.
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I haven’t had a lot of time to track this thread lately, but there’s been a lot going on.
I seen the exchange Chemistry for Bracer idea, and I don’t think that’s a great idea. +1 range would be massive for the Kipchak. They’re already the fastest Cavalry Archer in the game, even faster than Camels; this removes one of their weaknesses versus other FU ranged units to the point where they could deal no damage with micro, versus some damage. It also massively increases their damage application with hit-and-run tactics since more units will be able to fire. It makes them even easier to micro, which isn’t necessarily a good thing IMO.
Kipchak may be cheap, but they’re still a huge investment. You need all the Archery Range upgrades, which are expensive. You need Bloodlines. You need Castles, and Cuman castles aren’t very resilient. Elite Kipchak don’t have great damage output. They get countered by enemy CA or Cavalry.
It’s 2,100 resources for Elite Kipchak. I don’t care if it costs gold, that’s an enormous investment. That’s more than the Elite Cataphract (post buff). that’s a huge amount of resources that could go into Cavalier or Hussar.
+1 damage to Elite Kipchak would make that investment more worthwhile, and give them a fighting chance as a useful complementary unit in Imperial Age against high armor/high HP targets, like CA or Paladin. CA still wipe Kipchak, especially before Kipchak get Parthian Tactics. FU Skirms would still hold against FU Kipchak just fine.
Again, my suggestion is plus one damage for Elite Kipchak, or plus one damage for all Cuman Cavalry Archers in Imperial Age (to make them actually viable via Steppe Husbandry; still much weaker since they lack one range).
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Oh well, me quoting Cysion just yesterday about what he thinks about Mongols and saying he’s become mostly a reader, hard to know what he thinks. Well, guess what, after seven years, he decided to stream again and randomed for his current game (live now!) into… Mongols!
While I may be wrong, I’m wondering if SotL hasn’t been by any chance reading at least some of this thread lately.
Obviously only he knows it for sure, but there are a lot of small details that have intrigued me.
Here they are, for those interested :
Summary
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We know for a fact SotL visits at least sometimes the official aoe forum (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxHPksqFrYQ).
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Then there were some things he said in his counters guide video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZVbCmJ4IKM), that I found funny. Like “babysit cavalry archers” (3min50). That’s literally what I said about the kipchaks a few days earlier! Or quoting Cysion (11min33), as I did as many days ago. I cannot remember a single earlier video where SotL did any of those two things. While I may be wrong, as he’s posted hundreds of videos over the years, I’m quite positive.
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And today he’ll release on YouTube a Cuman feudal TC video. I said the Cumans were – unless going all-in – by no means a feudal powerhouse, being instead vulnerable while trying to boom. At least one user in this thread disagreed and it may have gotten SotL interested in doing the maths. (By the way, Hera published five days after my comment a video about successfully « punishing » the Cuman feudal boom, although he acknowledged at the end the unfortunate map generation for DauT, see for the whole https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U81AcvXsQkM).
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Last, SotL has chosen the Cumans as the last civ. to make an overview of. This thread isn’t that young anymore, it could have participated in his decision to do other Last Khans civs. first, just in case the kipchak got changed again. If this is true, then he was unlucky by picking the Tatars first, as their (second) castle UU got buffed within a week later instead of the Cuman one!
This doesn’t change anything to the fundamentals of the kipchak, though:
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The kipchak is the central Cuman unit. Even more so than the knight/paladin.
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Upgrading him is very expensive. In fact, fully upgrading a cavalry archer costs more than a Frank paladin! No other unit than a cavalry archer needs more upgrades from more buildings (archery range, stable, blacksmith and university). And I don’t mention here the monastery for faith&heresy or a castle if it’s a cav. archer UU (like the kipchak).
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With all those very expensive upgrades, the kipchak LOSES on equal total ressources to 36 of the other 40 UUs… The chukonu, while being easier to mass and much cheaper to upgrade, does much, much better. With the same settings, the chukonu WINS against 23 of the other 40 UUs.
–> The elite kipchak should get in my opinion a +1 atk buff.
A lot of people in this thread explicitly agree with this (or similar), some are undecided but only very few actually believe it would make the kipchak broken (see for the detail The Cuman Kipchak - An Analysis).
The kipchak is the central Cuman unit . Even more so than the knight/paladin.
-Is there evidence for this? Does it matter? If people are making them over the knight line, doesn’t that imply they are strong enough?
Upgrading him is very expensive .
-Yes, but you can still use them before getting all the upgrades, they have a 90% base accuracy so thumbring isn’t as mandatory as with CA.
With all those very expensive upgrades, the kipchak LOSES on equal total ressources to 36 of the other 40 UUs …
-Yes, but if you look at gold efficiency they are probably one of the best. 0 gold for the elite upgrade as well, so you can afford tons of siege support, or even cavalier support.
I think +1 attack would be fine as the civ is weak for the majority of players (but they don’t really need any buff at the very high end of the ELO range).
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The Kipchak Confederation was essentially their military elite AND ruling body.
Basically the Warrior Tribes of the Cumans.
" Kimek
The confederation or tribal union which Kipchaks entered in the 8th- or beginning of 9th century as one of seven original tribes is known in historiography as that of the Kimek (or Kimäk).) Turkic inscriptions do not mention the state with that name. 10th-century [Hudud al-'Alam] mentions the “country of Kīmāk”, ruled by a khagan (king) who has eleven lieutenants that hold hereditary fiefs. Furthermore, Andar Az Khifchāq is mentioned as a country ( nāḥiyat ) of the Kīmāk , ‘of which inhabitants resemble the Ghūz in some customs’.
In the 9th century Ibn Khordadbeh indicated that they held autonomy within the Kimek confederation. They entered the Kimek in the 8th- or beginning of 9th century, and were one of seven original tribes. In the 10th-century *[Hudud al-'Alam] it is said that the Kimek appointed the Kipchak king."
Not if they are microed, which is what the Kipchak is supposed to be, at all times.
Think of them as AoE2’s version of the Starcraft 1 Mutalisks.
Left alone hey will just get picked off and not do much, but properly microed they will let out salvos of brutal DPS bursts that will punish the opponent severely.
what?
the kipchak doesn’t even cost gold for elite kipchak
150 food and 100 gold for bloodlines
100 food and 50 gold for fletching.
200 food and 100 gold for bodkin.
300 food and 200 gold for chemistry
200 food and 250 gold for parth tactics
100 food for padded armor
150 food and 150 gold for leather armor
250 food and 250 gold for ring armor
150 food for husbandry
300 food and 250 wood for thumb ring
300 wood and 175 gold for ballistics
1100 food and 1000 wood for elite kipchak
1275 gold for fully upgraded kipchaks
to put that in perspective, cavalier + paladin alone costs 1050 gold. the attack upgrades bring that up to 1395 gold, add armor and your out another 350 gold, and that doesn’t even include chivalry.
and yeah. of-course cav archers are the longest tech path to upgrade. you’re combining the advantages of cavalry (mobility, higher attack and health) with the advantages of an archer (range, ability to hit and run) and on top of that kipchacks laugh at the pike line.
are you microing in these battles? i find this VERY hard to believe. and if you aren’t microing, your not using the fastest cavalry archer in the game, who has no frame delay, and a very low gold cost, to its potential at all.
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If we are going down the “Seen on Youtube!” road, I can find you a bunch of games where a Cuman player stuck in feudal just owns a Castle age player.
He already did all the civ overviews from before DE, he didn’t need this thread (or anything else) to make more for the DE civs.
Why? How?
As in: the elite upgrade doesn’t cost gold right?
After closer inspection, turns out that the kipchak isn’t a samurai reskin, and thus its matchup against each and every other UU isn’t that important.
Sounds a bit like the mamelukes being the Sarracen UU and an important ruler class, and yet they aren’t the go to unit every game. Just AOE2 things.
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1a) Fully upgrading a cavalry archer costs more than a Frank paladin
A cavalry archer costs 3100f, 500w & 1925g to fully upgrade, excluding conscription as well as faith&heresy.
Details
–>bloodlines (150f, 100g) & husbandry (150f)
–>fletching (100f, 50g)/ bodkin arrow (200f, 100g)/ bracer (300f, 200g) ; padded archer armor (100f)/ leather archer armor (150f, 100g)/ ring archer armor (250f, 250g)
–>heavy cavalry archer (900f, 500g)/ thumb ring (300f, 200w)/ parthian tactics (200f, 250g)
–> ballistics (300w, 175g)/ chemistry (300f, 200g)
A paladin, such as the Frank one, costs 3295f & 1845g to fully upgrade, excluding conscription (and chivalry for that matter) as well as faith&heresy.
Details
–> bloodlines (150f, 100g) & husbandry (150f)
–> forging (150f)/ iron casting (220f, 120g)/ blast furnace (275f, 225g) ; scale boarding armor (150f)/ chain barding armor (250f, 150g)/ plate barding armor (350f, 200g)
–> cavalier (300f, 300g) and paladin (1300f, 750g)
I excluded chivalry, because just as conscription it doesn’t change the unit’s own combat stats. Faith&heresy are stuck in between, as they do change the unit itself, but are very situational. But if one were to include chivalry, then the Turk cav. archer would still cost more to fully upgrade, if it wasn’t for free chemistry. And that’s odd, as the Franks are specialized in their cavalry and in fact just in their paladins, whereas the Turks are specialized in… gunpowder.
As a sidenote, most people talked about the cataphract’s excessive upgrade cost, which indeed was near the top, but in the fact it was and still is the berserk who needs by a clear margin the most ressources in the game to fully upgrade, even if one includes in the comparison all related techs such as creation speed or monk resistance.
1b) Upgrading the kipchak is very expensive
The kipchak’s upgrade is a little different, lacking bracer and husbandry (nerf the Cumans didn’t and shouldn’t get back) as well as having another unit upgrade version. While the kipchak costs less gold, it costs even more in total ressources. So I maintain my point that it’s a particularly expensive unit to upgrade, more so than the random UU.
- The kipchak is the central cuman unit
The assumption that because the kipchak is used in every Cuman game means he’s strong enough is erroneous. The mangudai has also been used in every Mongol game and yet has also been (re-)buffed in his long history since 1999.
- The kipchak LOSES to 36 of the other 40 UUs, whereas the chukonu WINS most fights
Micro. has. a price. While you babysit your kipchaks, you can’t do something else that you should have to do instead (eco, other hotspot, etc., cf. Are cavalary archers (except UU cavalry archers) underpowered?). Especially in imperial age, it’s really dangerous to look away even for just a few seconds. A single Siege Onager shot (8 to 8+1 range) and the kipchak army (4+2 range) is GONE, and possibly the entire game with it.
Btw, sources for the chukonu:
Details
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4sS1Ro-f4M (chukonu main test) in correlation with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsjqMBRrb3g (Flaming camel buff) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQTXkEBlCh4 (condottiero buff)
But the whole idea of the Kipchak is to be microed to death. 0 frame delay and fast speed are 2 of its best traits and it is what makes this unit so good in the hands of Viper, Tatoh etc… and mediocre else.
Kipchaks arent that good in straight patrol fights. Its their maneuverability paired with them dealing better than normal archer units with siege, that makes them strong.
Thats the design of the unit. And yes in the hands of a less skilled player kipchaks are not a strong unit.
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The difference is that Byz eco isn’t exactly top tier and catas need all their upgrades to be good, while Vikings have a good eco and berserks don’t need all their upgrades to perform well.
I assume you’re speaking about how they made the anti-siege bonus just an anti ram bonus, which wasn’t a “rebuff” but a simple reversion of the unit’s bonuses. Technically mangudai did get buffed when they added thumb ring/parthian tactics, but then it lost its 0 frame delay for the elite version which is a big nerf.
Same goes for chu ko nu (and the whole Chinese civ). Heck, even mangudai die to onagers if you don’t micro them.
You easily outmicro everything with Kipchaks
They are weak against ranged units and high pierce armor cavalry. Elite could give +1 damage.
They are very cheap overall.
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