The Dutch - new civ concept

Hi everyone, i am big fan of new civs in AOE II. I have concept for new late XVI century civ.

the Dutch
Naval and gunpowder civ

Main bonuses:
→ farms has +50 food for every age (sum of all is 200)
→ Hand Cannoneer and bombard cannon +1/+1 armor
→ gold mining +10% faster starting in fedual age
→ ships and watchtowers +2LOS

Unique Techs:
→ Sailors - ships slowly regenerate 20HP per minuter (castle age)
→ Banking - player is able to build max 3 Banks which slowly generate additional gold, (imperial age)

Unique units:
→ Musketeer - hand cannoneer with 3/2 armor and splash attack
→ Fluyt - warship with big LOS, long range of attack and high speed

Team bonus:
Trade ships and carts has 10% more HP and work 10% faster

I know that Dutch are late civ, but in game we have battles from XVI century and Burmese civ which history start in late XVI.
Maybe add Dutch to new DLC when it will be possible to add some new civs from america (conquer or defend new world topics)

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the dutch are pretty much already incorporated into the burgundians. furthermore the dutch weren’t a power until aoe3 time frame.

this is an insanely weak bonus.

so you steal turks bonus and cut it in half and limit it to feudal on up.

but those civs existed before the 16th century too.

what does this civs tech tree even look like? what do they do before castle age?

FURTHERMORE - we should really focus outside of EU for more civs. EU has a lot of them as is, especially after the upcoming expansion.


Revision of one bonus
→ farms has +100 food for every age starting from fedual (sum of all is 300)

Tech tree:

Archery Range:

  • no Arbalester, no Heavy Calvary Archer, no Partian Tactics


  • all techs and units


  • no Bloodlines, no Paladin

Siege workshop:

  • all units


  • No plate barding armor

Docks and University

  • all techs


  • no Sappers and Hoardings


  • no Faith and no Atonement

Town center:

  • all techs

Mining camps:

  • no stone both mining uprades

Lumberjack, Mill and Market

  • all techs

So what does this civ do in the late game, specifically team games?

yeah in 1v1 they are pretty much all in on siege + halb pushes too.

they can use gunpowder units and halb against calvary

and what do they use against archer civs? furthermore - again, what about team games.

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Interesting idea, but this sounds a bit too much like an AoE3 civ.


Dutch are not Medieval, nor belong in any Medieval game.
Burgundians already cover for the Dutch, and is precisely the reason they were introduced.


Dutch is an AoE 3 civ even the OP’s suggestions like Banking and Fluyt already exist in AoE 3.

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ikr, the only thing they would have is halb+siege but unlike celts, they get no bonuses towards it, just FU units

Before LOTW, the Low Countries were more or less covered by the Teutons (Holy Roman Empire) and the Franks (France – for Flanders, Artois etc.), but it was a bit awkward. Since LOTW, we have Burgundians to cover these areas.

Now, you could in theory have a separate Dutch and Burgundian civilization, either for the time predating Burgundian rule or for the time afterwards. However, most agree the Low Countries as a concept didn’t really exist before the Burgundians came, and these lands were simply French and HRR counties and duchies. For the time after the Burgundians, the Low Countries were ruled by the Spanish so they are already covered as well. A separate Dutch civ does make sense starting from 1566 (Eighty Years War) but that is already stretching the AOE2 timeline quite a bit.

Now, you could completely decouple Burgundians and Dutch, limiting the Burgundians to Burgundy proper and making the Dutch a separate civ during the entire time period. Being Dutch myself, I wouldn’t oppose that, but it wouldn’t be good for the game to make every European region into a separate civ. I honestly think 37 civs is already too much.

You could also make Burgundians a civ in which you have to choose between Burgundy or the Netherlands when you age up, like the minor gods in Age of Mythology, but personally I never liked that concept.

tl;dr – I would keep it the way it is.

I personally feel like the Dutch should no longer have any chance to make it into AoE2 over at least the next say 4 expansions or 8 years or so (whichever is sooner). So basically not unless there’s another revival at some point. The devs can talk their talks about how civilizations are selected, but I’m pretty sure one of the main reasons Burgundians were picked is to please Dutch and Belgian fans. And then on top of it the Burgundians were packed together with another Western European civ and we now seem to be getting another Eastern European batch. And while I will still stand by my position that it wasn’t a bad choice at all to revisit Western Europe with some new style civs, I don’t feel like we need yet another Dutch civilization at this point. Having more Dutch civs than say Southern Asian civs would be a little odd. (And I have to ignore the Franks a little to even be able to use that sentence.)

That said, on to the fun bit, what could a Dutch civ look like if you wanted to create one for say a modded campaign? I know there is at least one version of the civ out there already. I also did a little bit of thinking about it myself in the context of a campaign about Dutch sailors joining the Barbary pirates. (1606-1624, so pretty much past the regular AoE2 range, focusing on Simon the Dancer at first, with Dirkie de Veenboer bridging to the later bits following Jan Janszoon, don’t worry if those names don’t mean anything to you, they are historical footnotes at best.) The important part here is to note that I didn’t need to think about the representation of the Dutch throughout earlier times. Them making good scouts for the Romans who were said to be good at swimming and riding, the knight in shining armor era of the Limburg succession wars, I could ignore all of that and just base the bonuses on the 17th century.

In the version I had in my head the Fluyt would have been an upgraded trade cog that can shoot to defend itself. I don’t know if that’s even possible in the engine, I certainly didn’t get it to work with the little bit of experimenting I did in the scenario editor back then, and I also don’t feel like it’s a great tactical bonus to begin with, but I do like it from a flavor standpoint. Fluyts were the workhorses of the fleet, built for hauling loads and avoiding taxes (there was some form of a shipping tax based on the width of your deck, so fluyts had small decks). They were not in the grand scheme of things the greatest ships for battle.

The team bonus would probably have ended up being an extra cow under the TC at the start. I think/hope I came up with that before Tatars came out? Especially on the classic map generations where you sometimes didn’t immediately have your sheep this would have been a cool little bonus that is never overpowered but always nice to have.

If I had plans for a unique unit at all it probably would have been some form of gunpowder unit, given the era. I think I was thinking of using the Janissary skin for it, while using the throwing axeman, the woad raider (or huskarl?) and the berserk as the basis for my “heroes” (while the awfulness of these guys varies, the fact that they were pirates probably gives away they were not outstanding citizens by any means). Because I wanted big orange lions on the sails (and both France and Britain appear in the story) Celts would probably have formed the basis of the civilization looks wise.

So far my bonuses don’t quite overlap with yours maybe, but they’re certainly based around the same ideas as much of what you’ve got. I also don’t mind the extra ship/tower line of sight. I do think that having basically 4 economy bonuses of which 3 about gold may be a bit much from a game balance perspective. I’m also not sure if I like it historically. The whole trade and banking aspect, sure, but mining? We had mines for stuff like iron and coal, but I don’t feel like we’re famous for that or our metalworking. Even in the early modern era the muskets were often imported from the German Ruhr area. So those are the bits I might consider changing if you were building this civ as a mod.

I also feel like if you’re trying to tell the story of the Netherlands starting around the year 400 there should probably be something that’s about at least either cavalry or infantry in there. Even if it’s just the spearman line. Pikes are important even in the Dutch military reforms of the 16th and 17th century after all, if you’re worried about the endgame being weird because of bonuses from earlier ages. It wasn’t all just ships and gunpowder down the ages.

Why do all you amateur forum civ makers always make civs with a very limited tech tree?

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I see you got a lot of criticism over what might have been off with the design, so I thought I could give you some feedback about the features i considered to be nice.

→ ships and watchtowers +2LOS

Very intresting feature. I would consider making it apply only to watchtowers and have it as a team bonus. (Might be too similar to ethiopian Team Bonus, but i think giving it to ships too might be a bit too much). Still, I like it as it is too.

→ Sailors - ships slowly regenerate 20HP per minuter (castle age)

I think this is what a unique tech should be about. An investment that gives you an advantage if used properly. Suddenly Sailors can allow you to pull away weak ships and start getting more and more value.

Team bonus:
Trade ships and carts has 10% more HP and work 10% faster

I really like the idea of having a TB boosting trade cogs. They rarely see play in any game nowadays, and this might make it viable.

My main recommendation would be to change the banks mechanic (which feel too much like feitorias) and aim towards an unique eco bonus (current ones feel like a weak combination of sicilians + turks eco bonus)

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Are you sure?

It would be easy to make a new variant trade cog so it can shoot without editing the original and simply remove the old cog from the tree or make the new one look like the old and have the new effects+replace the old for that civ in particular - it would be like making a brand new king unit except equipping it with a weapon so it can attack properly - you can’t do it with the original unit, would need to make a brand new unit for it to work

Or at least that’s my guess from playing in the editor

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depends on which part of the dutch.
only todays belgium is presented by the burgundians.
the center of northern dutch is represented by the Teutons as a representation of the bishopric of Utrecht and since 1122 the city of Utrecht.
The county of Holland is mostly represented by the Franks
While the Frisians of the northsea are mostly represented by Teutons or Vikings. Maybe even Franks or Goths. It’s kind of a strange one. Rather unrepresented i guess.

I think the Frisians could easily be their own civ.
The Teutons is an umbrella civ like the Slavs or like the Indians used to be.
I don’t know how much of a naval powerhouse were the Dutch in the middle ages.
It seems more like trying to drag the AoE3 Dutch into AoE2.
Than have an AoE2 Dutch with a character of their own.