The nerfs to China|Mongolia need to be reverted or addressed

I have seen these arguments before- but that doesnt mean its not worth reiterating…
I agree that what u say is a problem… but the problem might really be- the devs are making hasty changes based on the initial complaints and its causing them more issues when they are nerfing the very thing that might be goving a civ its only one up” on the others… its always gonna happen “players are gonna spam the best unit to win- thus seems like its over powered. Though not true. Devs need to be careful not to bend to every will of complaint… and players need to find workarounds instead of complaining for fixs. This will all take time to smooth out. BUT what we dont want is a Rock Paper Scissors game. Rus beats chin, beat mong, beats, rus- kinda rounds where ur almost doomed if your not on the right side of the civ…

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If your opponent let’s you get there, yes. I just don’t think this will survive the next month, when people stop overestimating early Mongols aggression and rather go offensive. Then this will get exponential harder to pull off and sustain. The raiding bonus on the other hand is way less dependent on what route your opponent is going and enforcing the unique character of this civ, imo.

I think they (Relic) had a knee-jerk reaction to alpha and beta feedback. The feedback was based on four-six civs. When you think about it, perhaps revert the changes and testing the factions in the sandbox as they were designed would be healthy?

In the beta, people actually felt that the English were going to be beyond broken at launch.

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i absolutely agree with your post @Mittens313

china lost its unique starting tech (more vills) and right now needs massive buffs because their only play is rush feudal and TC spam to hold until castle age as they cannot trade cost effective in feudal against french/rus meta picks (99% of games are french/rus in ranked) unless you’re actually drastically better than your opponent.

mongols need big buffs too right now against meta picks mangudai are their only saving grace for aggression and its counterintuitive that a race meant to be aggressive is forced to boom to castle to get their bread and butter

major buff chinese and mongols - either that or heavily nerf rus/france

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the TC drop is bugged. the cart speed is only meant to be 50% increase but for some reason its like 150% increase. once thats fixed TC drop is no longer an issue

trading bonus is busted but for it to be effective you have to trade long distance mongols dont get walls and trade lines are so easy to sack its not worth it unless your opponent is literally braindead

trading in 3v3/4v4 games is good but in 1v1 unless you abuse yam and build towers along the entire route mangudai arent going to save someone sacking the line

From 4-> 6 start vill was already a nerf to Mongols, as it means the ovoo advantage is smaller. Mongols have no good specials units/techology too. Mangudia kind of weak (too expensive), and not useful in late game.

Horseman is so bad, they should at least get free upgrade when age up too. I feel like early houseman is actually a weakest in many situation that you don’t make them in age 1.

Most of the time I found building scout are actually better than horseman as scout can “tank” more arrow damage, and horseman die before able to hit much anyway.

Buff in Horseman will be nice… some bonus for mongols horse too. Right now if you build horseman you even lose to archer (esp. longbow, mongols so terrible vs longbow). Even you have Lancer in age3, it is still a weaker version as no good technology like France or Rus.

That’s what I feel playing Mongols in top30.

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I am a main China player and I can agree that in Dark and Feudal ages you can only spend on deffensive units on your TC and pray to survive until castle age. After that you are free to go to the battle. I don’t know if Relic wanted this or not, but is the way it is now versus France and Rus civs.

For Mongolia is the reverse, you start strong In Dark and every age you up you will be weakened and on Imperial you will be the worst civ. Maybe this is did on purpose for relic. Every civ has his age to shine.

In terms of China, giving Zhuge Nus slight increase in armor penetration damage, so they can compete with feudal MAA seems to be a good way imho.

They are frigging expensive for what they do anyways with 60F 30W 30G

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I’m agree but it is a huge cost compared with the other civs

Mongolia might need a little nerf along with the french, as we saw in the tournament they were among the strongest civs, and one of the civs actually able to beat french

I main chin also… and not giving away all my secrets… chin is one of 2 covs that have the most defensive bldngs including landmarks. This does give them a decent edge in first two ages compared to french and others that have 1 or none

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Ehh i dont agree with his lower placement of chinese… he said they were difficult” to learn” i agree it took me an hour to read everything and formulate a design but implementation of their layouts was very simple… and they might honestly have be the least micro” civ

The only thing that would look good is that China had some more villagers at the beginning since it was indirectly nerfed by the increase of villagers from other civilizations.

Does chin start with a higher initial pop cap? I thought they had like 2-3 extra?

Different from the official description, the official said that China’s enemies must catch up with the changes in the Chinese dynasty to fight against China, but in fact, China does not have excess capacity to upgrade the dynasty, because the benefits of upgrading the dynasty are too roundabout and indirect. When China can change dynasties, it is often when China already has an advantage. Upgrading the dynasty is only an additional added value.

Good point, and also on the imperial you can have all units of all dynasties with the landmark.

It’s important to address these kind of issues with carefulness to not take away what makes each civilization unique and asymmetric in the first place. It’s okay for every civilization to have both strengths & weaknesses to make them stand out more for more variety.

You aren’t supposed to win every game against every match up because if we start balancing things we shouldn’t then, there is no point in having asymmetric civilizations. I hope that the developers don’t fall into the trap by listening to whiners on the forums because that will eventually hurt the game and the same people will be back whining how everything then is too similar.

That being said I agree that something needs to be addressed when it comes to China in particular.

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The simplest solution: half price for China’s second landmark, slightly increase the anti Heavy Armor ability of Zhuge crossbow, and cancel the strange setting of three resource consumption. Choose two of these three solutions.

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