It’s not an overpowered unit, it’s just that nearly all other Infantry UUs were complete garbage before the last balance changes and they made the Obuch look broken in comparison, as whilst the unit is very good. It’s not Conquistador, War Wagon or Old Arambai levels of busted were a Civ that has otherwise very little going for it, is able to scrounge a respectable level of viability on FC maps mainly through the power of literally just this UU.
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Yes other infantry UUs were really bad, but at the same time Obuch is a bit overtuned in comparison, and belongs to a civ with literally OP eco on Arena and OP cavalier spam, as I said, just remove 1 PA and that’s it, still insane in melee combats like Leitis but just get wrecked by archers, and also makes Obuch less problematic at raiding (has 6 PA, really good for that task).
After many games with Poles on Arena and seeing Pros using them here tho, Poles are definitively too strong on Arena, maybe nerfing their eco could be neccesary tho. @Geojak92 's idea of giving garrsion space to Folwark but nerfing the food collected (10% to 5%, but another compensation could be also increasing the radius that Folwarks covers so you can place more farms and get the food).
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I agree that Obuch need more tweaking. But I don’t think nerfing their stat is a wise way. Obuch is actually late game power unit that Poles lacking otherwise, so they need great combat strength. Also they have no tools to deal with Cav archer in late game and nerfing more PA to weakening them more against HCA is not a wise way to nerf.
But I think they are bit too strong compared to it’s cost. I think increasing their gold cost to 30 with maintaining current combat strength and that’s it. They aren’t trade too cost efficiently to every unit in that way.
+5 Gold Cost and
-5 Hp for elite and non elite should do the trick tobalance obuch, or altenatively -1 atk for elite and non elite
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I still don’t get why anyone would claim poles are op on arena. They have great eco, sure, but I mean no one claims that khmer are op on arena and they have similarly strong eco (no buildings requirement and insane farmers are just as strong). And the cheap knights are pretty useless here in most scenarios. Poles might be one of the best civs to defend castle drops but castle dropping poles is just a bad strat. Although they can put you in a somewhat awkward position, once you know how to deal with it it’s a perfectly fine civ and doesn’t stand a chance against any of the top civs. Obuch is great vs (most) melee civs but they get countered by any civ with good ranged units. Even some of the weaker civs (berbers, tartars) have good matchup vs poles.
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Top civs are good but it doesn’t mean no civ stand a chance against them. I would say top civs are better than Poles instead of this sentence.
It is bad argument. If a civ has 120 HP Halberdier, would this become OP? I am answering for you, yes 120 HP Halberdier is OP. With your logic, it is fine because 120 HP Halberdier still die to Arbalest and Champion or 300 HP Paladin still die to Halberdier cost efficiently. Having counter unit doesn’t mean that this unit is fine. Obuch has too good statistics comparing to best infantries in the game. Obuch destroy all melee units except units having high melee armor or lacking special bonus against Obuch (Samurai, Jaguar, Cataphract, etc.). Obuch also make crumple cavalries by hitting 2-3 times to them. After losing 2-3 armor, cavalries die to archers like fly which normally counter of archers. FU Paladin tank 60 arbalest arrow, after 1 hit from Obuch, it decrease to 45, after 2 hit, it decrease to 36 (almost half resistance against archers).
I don’t think Berbers and Tatars are weaker civ of the game. If we say Chinese, Franks, Aztecs, Mayans are S tier civs, Berbers and Tatars are A tier civs.
I disagree. Elite Obuch vs Aztec Champion is an even fight (both kill the other in 6 hits) and the champion costs 10 food less, while being easily spammed from fast-working Barracks. With equal numbers, Japanese and Slav Champions also beat Elite Obuchs, while being cheaper. If you balance for resources spent then Goth champions also beat Obuchs with numbers, and most likely Burmese, Vikings, Teutons and Bulgarians (I haven’t tested these specifically).
Obuchs are relatively strong, but they do not beat any of the decent infantry civs directly, and they can certainly lose fights against units without bonus damage.
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but these champions aren’t good against cavalry and trash units as much as Obuch. Obuch also better meat shield than these Champions (95 hp 2/2 armor vs 70 hp 1/1 armor). With 0.9 speed, you wouldn’t reach enemy too often, therefore being tanky is better than having high damage output. -1/-1 armor reduction is also support other units. In head-to-head fight, Obuch can struggle against high damage output units like Leitis or Aztecs, Japanese Champions but these are melee specialist units. Obuch are more useful unit than these even if it die to them in head-to-head fight.
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All of those civs’ perform well against trash, and Vikings do particularly well against Cavalry. I don’t debate that Obuchs are a great meat shield in a ranged vs ranged fight, but that niche does not make them overpowered. It’s also not going to be a winning strat long term to use a gold unit as your meat shield in 1v1 if you’re facing something like Hussar + Cav Archer from the opponent, and you’re only stripping the armor off their expendable trash unit. If we are talking gold-costing meat shield vs ranged fire, the Malian Champion is worth considering, taking 35 shots from Arbalesters vs the Obuch’s 24.
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I mean Skirmisher only gives 1 damage to Obuch while other 1 PA infantries get 2 damage. With 2 MA, Obuch take 6 damage (14% less) from Hussar while other infantries take 7. High armor is very useful against trash units. Of course Berserk is better than Obuch against trash but Obuch is second after Berserk.
but Obuch is still better meat shield than Vikings Champion.
Only 20 gold unit with Poles 50% gold from Stone bonus can be used very long time without big problem. Poles can create 150 Obuch with gold of Franks 40 Paladin for instance.
but Malians Champion is trash in melee combats. This is real strength of Obuch actually. It is a unit that contain every useful thing of Champions. It is like Vikings+Malians Champion combined. I would behave Malians Champion the way that Obuch if it has Vikings +5 bonus attack against Cavs.
Some may ask why is Poles not OP in late game then. Answer is simple: One reason is It has no unit that counter archers. Without last armor, Skirmisher struggle against archers. second reason is Cavalries are bad without last armor upgrade. Poles Winged Hussar isn’t better than generic Hussar for instance.
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Yep, I’ll agree with you there. I do think the Obuch is a strong unit, just appropriately strong in the context of the entire civ. It could be a problem if Mayans or Britons for example had Obuchs, but for the Poles it’s just one more unit that dies to enemy archers, and can provide a meat shield for their own subpar archers and skirms.
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Well then I guess there was a misunderstanding. I was replying to post about poles as an arena civ. And since here you usually can get to your desired army comp poles struggle vs civs with good archers or cav archers. And while on ara tartars are great (easy a tier imo) and also berbers are good both of them are pretty bad on arena. And the other top arabia civs also aren’t good here except for aztecs.
Ofc thats op. Point is just that poles don’t really have units to deal with archers on arena. They have their own strenghts here but simply have quite a lot of bad matchups. So while obuch is a great unit it doesn’t save the civ from being super awkward in a lot of matchups (it’s not a bad arena civ by any means though). And on open maps that’s less of a problem bc you can use mobility. However here there eco bonus doesn’t work as easily.
They can do this in the game?