I’ve been playing Italy for several months as the main civilization in treaty mode and I’ve noticed several problems:
-First, the army is weak, the bersagliere does good damage but with 0.2 ranged resistance, it dies very easily. The hussar and the musketeer are a bit lackluster. The dragon is slightly better than average but not by much. Halberdiers, culverins, and mortars are good.
On the other hand, papal units are completely useless since they interfere with shipments due to their training mechanics.
-The papal bombard is the worst artillery in the game, it does the same damage as the horse artillery, and it moves so slow that the culverins destroy it very easily, the extra HP doesn’t compensate anything for the deflection ability.
The economy is a bit weak, due to the absence of the second factory, and the Lombards do not compensate much.
In short, the average economy with a mediocre army.
Advanced Lombards: Lombards trickle resources twice as fast and Lombards now trickle 0.5 XP for each invested resource; different resources do not stack the trickle.
Usury: Lombards now return 25% more coin for each invested other resource and deposits a trickle of 0.60 coin into the player’s Lombards. ( 0.60 x 5L = 3.00)
Heavy Paveses: Pavisiers get +15% hit points and increases the resistances of Pavisiers in all stances; +0.15 Ranged, Siege and Melee resist for Volley, Stagger and Melee stance respectively, and +0.1 Ranged, Siege and Melee resist in Defend and Stand Ground stance.
Steel Bolts: Pavisiers get +2 LOS and range, increases their siege attack range to their ranged attack range, and Light infantry multiplier +1.25×
Black Company: Ships 5 Black Riders and 5 Armored Pistoleers; costs 500 food, 500 wood, 500 coin.
Roman Tactics: Pikemen, Pavisiers and Halberdiers get +1% damage while more of these units are nearby; The maximum is 50% and each unit adds 1%, to reach the maximum you need 50 units.
The bersaglieri aren’t a bad unit, they just have the problem that they are unlocked in age 4 and not before, so switching into them is difficult both because they take time to train and because in the meantime you don’t have any guard level for the pavisiers. The first problem though can be solved by the venetian arsenal, which I would use more often if such card would also give the advanced arsenal cards.
But talking about the stats alone, the bersaglieri are already quite good, they can kite, and they can snowball fights thanks to their PTSD inducing trumpets. The only problem is that they need 2 HC to upgrade both in age 4 that are hard to squeeze in, but that’s more a problem of how Italy is designed, having few HC upgrades that are either super generic (like schiavona swords) or super specialized (like the 2 pavisiers or bersaglieri cards).
This would be super OP and difficult to implement…
I mean, you should invest one resource to get 50-50, but then you also get a trickle of the resource invested, but of just 1 investment, while you can invest all 3 resources at the same time…
The card is already good because of the basilica wagon, which give XPs and cheap techs for vills, on top of opening the doors to papal shipments.
I agree that this cards isn’t simply worth it, it’s better to add an architect and just build more lombards, but I wouldn’t buff it anyway…
The way this card works, is that resources invested are depleted slower, because they take 0.8 instead of 1 of food or wood. The main problem is that it doesn’t include gold investments, so I would start by including that, and then buff it from 0.8 to 0.75 for a start. Alternatively, this card could have lombards generate a trickle of gold when exchanging resources, similarly to the XP trickle.
But I agree that this card needs a change, even just to compensate the lack of 1 factory.
Again, slow down with the steroids. +25% is huge in age 3, I get it that it’s because of the nerf to roman tactics, but still it’s too much.
Now this is a bad change… +15% HP is better than just +1% HP for every unit, this isn’t a good way to buff units, it might be fine for an attack buff, but it’s worse for the HP, it means that as long as you are loosing units, other units alive are also losing HP, which means that you might get units that dies from nothing…
In my opinion just nerf the pavisiers HP bonus from +30% to +15% if you are giving them the guard and imp upgrade. Then the attack buff can stay as it is, since it’s some more rather than the main theme of the card, although I would like to see a change like:
pavisiers, pikes and halbs gets +5% atk for each of such units nearby
And the imp upgrade.
Italy military strength comes from its ability to field a lot of different units, which is counterbalanced by the lack of HC upgrades, so yes, the guard and imp upgrades.
To balance it, the guard upgrade should give just +30% HP and atk, and not the +1 range, to balance it, so you are still incourage to switch into bersaglieri, that are faster, with more range and attack and better to kite, while pavisiers are a tanker light infantry better at sieges.
Although, the pavisiers needs their firing animation and changing stance speed fixed too.
Now Italy start is quite difficult I have to say, but every buff that came to mind has either an effect too strong on the later game, or it can be abused, like having them start with +100 wood, or +50xp crates, or cheaper eco techs…
Anyway having hunting dogs and steel traps costing food is a nerf, because it slow down your age up time.
The Pavisier requires too many cards to be viable, my recommendation is to give him the Guard and Imperial upgrades, plus the Heavy Paveses and Steel Bolts cards should become exclusive Italian Arsenal upgrades for the Pavisier . (these are improvements too important to be a shipment from the metropolis)
The Bersagliere has low health and decent damage, but needs 4 cards and 3 upgrades to reach a proper level in combat, I think this unit needs to have 30% ranged armor vs. Ranged
The Architect is tedious as the solo, it costs gold instead of food and it builds too slowly, my proposal is that it collects wood much faster than a normal villager and that it can be affected by the Stonemasons card
My version of Stonemasons card: All villagers, included Architects, build buildings 50% faster. Original VersionHere
I think we can agree that the Papal Bombard is the worst artillery in the game, its ability is counter productive, I think they should change the ability of Deflection to Holy Fire, regarding its speed I think it should be identical to the speed of Ottoman bombards, also I think they should be able to create from the Basilica.
honestly i would remove the factory and add a card for the lombards to consistently produce all 3 resources.
Tedious and demanding, who in their right mind believes that economic micromanagement is the center of this game? The Usury card could be much more useful if we lock a minimum number of resources on the Lombards 250 at all, this way the Lombards would always be producing resources just like a factory.
All the good units in Italy are blocked by a horrible mechanic that is only there to hinder their use, I honestly wish they counted as mercenary units and we could train them directly from the basilica at the cost of gold.
This is my opinion on what are the problems in Italy and how I would like them to be changed, obviously this is just my opinion and not a request.
I’m going to be honest, I think he’s a troll and we shouldn’t reply to him, look at his reply to the Uffizi card, literally don’t modify the card at all, add the card to show that he copies his effect in advanced lombards and he replied to me as if the I would have made the Uffizi card something OP.
I agree that the Bersaglieri needs a buff, but I meant that the person you’re replying (DoctBaghi) to looks like a troll to me.
El pavasier: Esta la opcion de hacer que sean tecnologias del arsenal o combinar ambas cartas en 1 y renombrandola “Ballestero de Genova” y como bonus adicional les habilita la mejora de guardia pero ahora la carta cuesta 250 de comida y madera
El bersaglieri: Sere sincero no quiero que tenga la resistencia estandar del 30% con un 25% bastaria y con 1 más de daño de disparo (17 en lugar de 16) y que pudiese ser creado en 3ra eso seria un buen buff.
Arquitecto: Sinceramente yo que estoy jugando mucho italia no he encontrado problemas con el arquitecto ya con 2 de ellos te haces media base gratis y con 3 ni te cuento, y la carta stonemasons los romperia eso si la carta de masones de 3ra la moveria a 2da
Bombarda Papal: Todos hayan mala esta artilleria no se yo la encuentro bastante fuerte pero dificil de masear xd.
Fabrica: Colega entonces como harian artilleria papal? eso seria pesimo pero eso si la carta en vez de ser el de una fabrica normal podria renombrarse como “Industrias de napoles” que ademas de darte la fabrica hace que los lombardos tengan un ligero goteo de 1 de cada recurso son 5 asi que serian 5 de comida madera y oro por segundo (sigue siendo muy basto pero me gustaria que fuese mas balanceado)
Lombardo: No digo nada aqui, pienso que si deberia tener un tope ilimitado.
Basilica: Ese problema si es muy jodido, ya plantee que se crearan lineas de entrenamiento dentro de la basilica pero que se demoraran lo mismo que un envio, aun les costaria masearlas pero no interrumperian los envios de la metropoli.
yo creo que la carta de arsenal papal antes de darle una habilidad cargada a la bombarda papal, lo que tendría que hacer es poder mandarte una bombarda desde la basílica por 300 de cada recurso, de esa forma remplazaría la fabrica menos
el lombardo ya es un buen edificio con un limite de 5000, tal vez le faltaría una tecnología en cuarta que aumente la velocidad de intercambio, esto en tratado es mas necesario porque la cantidad de recursos que necesita es mucho mayor.
el bersaglieri realmente no hay que hacerle ningún cambio, solo tiene que hacer que al crearlos ya vengan con la habilidad cargada, y la unidad seria %100 mejor.
Besaglieri stats are not bad, but, the problem is the range resistance, they die easily and they are fragile compared with other skirms, their velocity at least in treaty not suppose any advantage in the fights
But jokes aside, this is a problem of all Italians units when you think about it. With the exception of the pavisiers and halbs, Italy doesn’t have any card that buff the HP of their units, but this is mostly to compensate the strength and ability of the papal units.
Now, I don’t play treaty often, but I know the principles. If you take your bersaglieri with 20%, and then have some papal units together, be it papal guards, lancers or zuaves (probably the latter are the more appropriate in this case) the bersaglieri get a quarter of their damage spread into the papal units, so you can adds up the bersaglieri 20% ranged resistance with the 25% bodyguard effect, and you end up with actually even more resistance than you need for.
The strength of this ability is that you don’t even need the units that tank to actually be in front and to take every shot, they just have to be nearby, and that really saves a lot of micro.
The problem is that the training mechanics of the papal units make them useless since they interfere with the shipments. It is impossible to get a good mass of them even if you send them constantly. You have a maximum of 7 papal units every 40 seconds that will die almost immediately when they arrive at the battle and you are also sacrificing your economy for not receiving shipments, to that you add that your economy is half bad, and what you get is a gg. No player no matter how good he is uses papal units in his basic army composition more than at the beginning of the fight. So, you finally have an army of skirms that don’t last long in battle even though they do good damage with a slightly weak economy. That is the problem with the Bersagliere and its ranged resistance of 0.2.