~theory crafting for a final balance patch

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
1

Given discussion about signs of a possible patch in the works, I want to talk about approximately where I’d like to see a final patch go.

While it’s probably still best to assume no patch is coming, I want to set a few ground rules for consideration. First I’d like to assume no truly new content will be added (visual assets, units, mechanics, etc). Secondly, all changes should be small and relatively easy to implement. The reason for “small” being that any unexpected issues created in a final patch would be unlikely to be solved in the future, and with a few exceptions, balance is pretty decent.

General:

  • Smokeless Powder (Jesuits) reduced to +5% Gunpowder Infantry/Cav attack. +2% artillery attack. (Down from +10% and +5% respectively). Cost reduced to 75f, 75c (down from 150f 150c).
  • Revolt research time increased by 15 seconds.
  • The Mercenary Contractor (V) is now +25% attack/hp and is only available to Sweden (down from +50%).
  • All civs receive +25% attack and hp on mercenaries in age 5 (up from nothing).
  • Food Trickle (I) increased to 1.5 food and 0.2 xp per second (up from 1.5f).
  • Town Ceremony (I) has a reduced impact on fort-type buildings (about half the impact of normal).

Russians

  • Strelet range increased to 15 (up from 14), hp increased to 76/95 (from 72/90).
  • Strelet cost increased to 355f, 120w (from 375f, 100w).
  • Veteran Strelet now adds +1 range.
  • Strelet Combat (III) - reduced to 15% attack and hp (down from +20%).
  • Strelet Horde (IV) - reduced to +5% hp on Strelets (down from +10%), Strelets now cost coin instead of wood.

As has been pointed out by people such as @dansil92 and/or @platypus_slayer1, a lot more units have greater range or speed than they did in RE. Russia has kinda been left behind. The Strelet range changes will help a lot vs a variety of civs. The hp changes are specifically targeted at the Otto vs Russia MU where the worst MU got worse with the introduction of the Deli. The other changes suggested work around those two main ones.

British

  • -50f from starting crates.

Germans

  • No changes.

French

  • Food Trickle (I) increased to 1.5 food and 0.2 xp per second (up from 1.5f).
  • Native Warrior Combat (II) removed.
  • Team French Auxiliaries Combat (I) improved to +10% native warrior attack and hitpoints, and an additional +5% attack and hitpoints for French players (up from +10% for the team).

This would be a net loss of 10% attack and hp on natives. I believe this would actually be a ~reversion. I believe the age 2 native warrior combat was added to the French in DE before the alliance card in age 1 to let you get Royal Musketeers (and given that second card the first seems unnecessary given that native builds are kinda op now.).

Dutch

  • Food Trickle (I) increased to 1.5 food and 0.2 xp per second (up from 1.5f).
  • Envoys can now construct houses by default.

A higher level tier lists put Dutch on the lower end. This is a small buff that will help in some rush scenarios, but be less impactful than 50f to age up time which is already fast.

Portuguese

  • Artillery Hitpoints (III) - removed.
  • Grapeshot (IV) - renamed “Improved Artillery Chassis (IV)”
  • +15% hp on Culvs, Heavy Cannons, and Horse Artillery.
  • Removes Organ Guns pack-up animation.

This represents a loss of +15% OG hp, +0.5 AoE and a 0.25 RoF improvement on Organ Guns, allowing for the retention of the movement improvement which is really fun while removing the things that improve their already high damage output. It’s also relevant that without the +15% hp, imperial culvs can one shot imperial organ guns.

Spanish

  • No changes.

Ottomans

  • Mosque Construction (III) changed to “All unique Ottoman Mosque improvements cost less 25% less. Economic improvements cost an additional 25% less.” (Down from all costing 50% less.)
  • Topcular (III) increases Artillery Trooper, Grenade Trooper, Great Bombard, Falconet, and Horse Artillery attack and hp by 10%. (Down from all artillery as the third category and +15%)
  • Enderun School (III) improves Janissary, Azap, and Nizam Fusiliers attack and hitpoints by 15% (down from 20%).
  • Acemi Oglan School (IV) only applies to Janissaries and Nizam Fusiliers (down from all Ottoman heavy infantry).
  • Ottoman vills train 2 seconds slower.

A couple big nerfs to the Ottoman FI, including the loss of their artillery combat card’s effect on culvs which gave them a significant advantage in the artillery wars that can occur if the big push doesn’t end the game immediately. The big cost reduction for Ottoman Grens is removed, which should render them okay. A lot of units are losing a +5% attack and hp from cards that seemed overvalued compared to many similar cards available to other civs.

Swedes

  • Food Trickle (I) increased to 1.5 food and 0.2 xp per second (up from 1.5f).
  • +50f to starting crates.
  • Carolean hp increased to 160 (from 150).

Caroleans are rarely used now because they were targeted for heavy nerfs before the Swedish economy was finally nerfed. This should make them more usable. The +50f is a revert which seems reasonable as again, the Torp boom eventually got nerfed.

Maltese

  • Incendiary Grenades now gives Sentinels 0.5 AoE on their standard ranged attack.
  • Imperial Sentinels now adds +3 Range (16 (regular) and 18 (rocket) total. Up from 13 and 15 respectively).
  • Sicilian Supplies (IV) - Food trickle of 2.75 removed and replaced with a 2.75 wood trickle.

Italians

  • Usury (IV) - Adds a trickle of 0.2f, 0.2w, 0.2c to Lombards.
  • Alpine (IV) now adds +2 range on Musketeers.

Italian’s late game is pretty bad, and needs both a military and economic buff. These may be too small in treaty, but neither should have a huge impact on 1v1 so at least this helps a bit.

Lakota

  • No changes.

Huad

  • No changes.

Aztecs

  • No changes.

Inca

  • Bolas Warrior speed increased to 4.5. Infantry tag removed. Heavy infantry tag removed. Ranged shock infantry tag added. Shock infantry tag added.
  • Cost increased to 65f 65c (from 75f 45c).

*Having a second unit that doesn’t die to artillery so fast would be a big deal. The cost increase should help remove some of the inherent improvement vs skirmishers gained by being light cavalry instead of heavy infantry. This is probably the only exception I’d make to the “small changes only” rule set out at the top of this thread. Based on a pro level tier list I saw recently, a buff to the civ seems warranted.

Japanese

  • Honored Flaming Arrows increases range by 2 (up from none).
  • Exalted Flaming Arrows no longer increases range (down from +2, total is still 30).

*imo this was a great suggestion from @H3LLGHA5T in another thread.

Indians

  • Tower of Victory: add new passive ability, +5% infantry speed.

Chinese

  • German Consulate food trickle improved to match the card. Cost increased by 20 export.

Ethiopia

  • Age 3 Skirm shipments increased to 8 and 7 (from 7 and 6 respectively).

I think @platypus_slayer1 gets credit here but I don’t fully remember.

Hausa

  • No changes.

USA

  • New York card “Infinite Zouaves” 1500c for 10 Zouaves + 1 for every type you’ve sent the card, max of 20 (down from unlimited).
  • Chinese Immigrants (I) now costs 50w (up from none).

I think the second change here was suggested by LionHeart in a video. It seemed reasonable.

Mexico

  • Robber Barrons (Baja California) now costs 200f, 200w (Up from nothing).
  • Bandido “Dynamite Demolition” charged ability now has 1.5 AoE (down from 3).
  • Cuatrero “Big Game Hunting” charged ability now has 1 AoE (down from 2).

Thought?

6 Likes
2

Why make sweden the only viable merc civ lategame?Idk, that change would be bad news for dutch or germans

Is the flat +25% to make asian mercs more viable? If stats only increase by 25%, wouldnt mercs be completely outperformed (resource- and popwise) by standard units?

3 Likes
3

I think this addresses many of the current major issues. The only concern I have with your suggestions is I don’t think the Mexico Age 2 revolts aren’t hit hard enough. There are a few issues:

  • Given the way the code works, the Robber Barrons card would have to be replaced with a different card that has a cost; this would significantly hurt the long-term prospects of the revolt (which is good) but would effectively remove this card from use (not great; all cards should have a viable use)
  • It doesn’t address the CA revolt, which, although it is much less popular, also heavily over performs
  • It doesn’t address the difficulty of predicting a Baja or CA revolt, as that cannot be scouted, and if you prepare to face Baja and you’re hit with CA, it’s basically GG, and vice versa.

My recommendation would be to, instead:

  • increase the cost to revolt to Baja or CA, maybe by 50% (so 450 or 500 of each res, which would also be more in line with the progression of 750 → 1000 → 2000 with the later revolts). This would delay the revolt by a minute or so, giving the opponent a little more time to mass an army and giving them a fairer chance
  • Replace Robber Barrons with a new card (maybe call it Sonoran’ Scrips, referencing the bonds Walker sold in San Francisco to raise funds for his campaign, or San Franciscan Backers) that sends a tavern wagon and increases the coin trickle rate of taverns by 1c/s. Sending a factory wagon never made sense for this revolt anyways
2 Likes
4

This is in part a design philosophy argument which I may be on the wrong side of.

I don’t think imperial mercs are good design, at least as implemented. You get +50% right off age up on a mix of units which (for more and more civs) aren’t even bottle necked by limited training facilities. Instead of filling holes in civs’ unit rosters they often just take over and remove things like macro because they only cost coin. In numerous cases over time they’ve also presented balance issues because many of them were designed as power spikes rather than to be core parts of a civ’s military.

Sweden I consider to be a unique case where they were designed to have holes that must be filled. Essentially they were made broken so mercs could fix them.

To the question of making it more viable to Asian civs, yes, that was part of the intention within the broader overall philosophy that mercs should be “less viable supplemental units” late game.

Having said all that, that was a little wishlist-y to add so I wouldn’t really care if they dropped it, nor do I care to argue about it further. Apologies for what may have sounded like a rant.

2 Likes
5

All of this seems incredibly reasonable. Though assuming less work is better, I’d probably say the higher revolt cost probably solves the time issue I was looking to solve with the cost on the factory wagon so changing that may become unnecessary.

1 Like
6

British

  • Ranger added to units, without deleting Longbow

French

  • French Rev: Imperial Mercs tech added somewhere

Dutch

  • Politician who gives 5 villagers now also adds them to population limit.

Indians

  • Mansabdars sent from Basilique-style shipments from Charminar
  • No access to mercs. Exclusive pool of just Indian mercs (new units).
  • A way to create Urumi from Fort, monastery and maybe Castles.

Aztecs

  • Wild West Outlaws removed. Mortar removed
  • New: A “super-coyote”, 2 pop, number limited, with area attack.
  • Skull Knights creable somewhere.

Inca

  • Tech which gives villagers also adds to the limit

Swedes

  • Something. I do not why, but the need a buff.

Italians

  • Papal Bombard ROF reduced to 4, like the Li’l Bombard.
  • Bigger batches of Papal units for lategame

Maltese

  • Max Wall Gun stats made canonical for Sentinels with the card. Maybe slower for balance
  • Hospitals are pathable, for improving the healing capabilities.
1 Like
7

I like it, I would just add

>jungles down on cost to 75f still 20w.

Jungles just suck and the poison mechanic is so hard to fix mechanically I think dropping some cost is in order. I’d wager inca still struggles here but at least your age2 early 3 isn’t so vunerable to falcs and goon. Love the ranged shock idea as it keeps them weak to skirms (maybe more) but allows them to aCT as goons more.

and yeah I was the ethopia +1 skirm but I owe that idea partially to someone I was debating the power of neftenya so I can only take partial credit!

2 Likes
8

Los Manteletes de los Haudenosaunee necesitan la habilidad de evasión. Son muros móviles, absorben daño

1 Like
9

“Smokeless Powder” actually costs 250food and 250coin. I would change the tech to increase Gunpowder Infantry/Cavalry/Artillery attack by +5%, at a cost of 150f 150c.

In the last update, the completion time for all revolutions was increased to 15 seconds. Do you want it to be increased to 30 seconds?

I propose that “The Mercenary Contractor” now also be a technology (at the Capitol, Tavern/Saloon, or Town Center) that all civilizations in the Imperial Age can research (similar to Legendary Native Warriors/Exalted Natives), and it could be nerfed so that it only increases hit points and attack by 35%. Advancing to the Imperial Age with the “The Mercenary Contractor” politician allows free research of the “The Mercenary Contractor” technology. In the case of the USA, the State of New York could be reworked so that the “Hamilton’s Own” card also allows free research of this technology, but “The Mercenary Contractor” can still be researched even if you don’t choose New York.

I think it would make more sense to increase Colbertism’s Food Trickle from 1.5 food to 1.7 food (Capitalism gives a trickle of 1.65 coins/sec.).

The USA’s “New Hampshire Manufacturing” card (III) sends 1 Factory and costs 250f 250w. I propose the same cost for Baja California’s Robber Barons.

More proposals:
-The Castramentation card (IV) also allows Musketeers and similar units to build Outposts and Forts.
-Increase the build limit for Galleons and Steamers to 4, like the Dutch Fluyts.
-Priests don’t cost population and have a limit of 10, like the Spanish Missionaries.
-Make Mortars prioritize attacking buildings, in addition to slightly increasing the damage of Mortars against infantry.
-Buffs to the weakest revolutions.

British:
-Rangers are trainable by default at age IV like Bersaglieri and do not replace Longbows.

Germans:
-The I Age cards also provide 1 or 2 Uhlans starting in the II Age (this opens the door to new strategies).

Italians:
-It is necessary to research the Guard upgrade for Bersaglieri in the Industrial Age.
-The population cost of Papal Bombards is reduced from 8 to 7 (Note that the population of Great Bombards can be reduced to 6 with the “Topçu Corps” tech).

Maltese:
-Sentinels can now build Hospitals, Commanderies, and Artillery Foundries by default, and with the “Wall Guns” card they can also build walls.
-The Maltese “Advanced Artillery” (III) is replaced by a card that sends 2 Mortars and allows them to be trained, since the Maltese cannot train Horse Artillery.

10

Pas du tout, c’était présent déjà dans le jeu original, celui qui apporte actuellement +10% d’hp et de dommage apportait +15% aux indigènes et le 2e qui apporte +15% aux indigènes quand à lui apportait +25%

11

I actually fixed this at one point. I wrote a lot from memory, put it all into a topic, fixed some things but the topic failed to create and the draft didn’t make it.

Yes. My intention was to make revolts take longer, largely to nerf Baja, but also some other revolt all ins which cannot be scouted.

Certainly a workable option.

I think the issue here is vill value. 1.25w = 2.5 vills on wood. 1.65c = ~2.8 vills on coin. To reach a similar value a food trickle would need to be ~2.17f per second (assuming a more conservative 2.5 value). I think that’s too big and would speed up age up more than the devs want a trickle card to be able to. So I thought about what else could be done and landed on xp, so the worst trickle improves your shipment curve which at minimum might be interesting in some builds over or in addition to 3 vills.

1 Like
12

I played very little French on RE, so I must have forgotten that the second card was there. I did remember the first card being a 15/15, but given changes to the game I still think the changes I suggested for French are well reasoned and help to fix the native rush problem. Consistent access to Royal Musketeers is massive and needs to be considered in deciding how many native upgrades they should have.

13

Baja is easy to fix - free immigrants tech instead of fixed 200 pop

disable chinaco during baja (should not be able to pivot into melee units)

remove all positive multipliers for charge attacks + aoe reduction

soldier of fortune either split xp into xp and gold or just becomes cartridge currency ( no longer counts artillery and buildings and only 30% maybe 50% bounty value)

1 Like
14

Are you sure all of that is necessary? Increasing the cost of the age 2 revolts as @coyotekiller114 suggested along with a 15s research time increase on all revolts would seem to slow the first wave enough to be survivable for most civs and I already suggested cutting the outlaw AoE which weakens the follow up.

1 Like
15

to me the first wave of baja isnt the problem, relatively speaking its the easier thing to defend against since its basically an early musket rush. It might hit earlier then say a double rax jan timing but it should be powerful if its to be a all in rush and people should be incentivised to hold town militia against it. As long as Baja is hitting around 6-6:30 i dont really have an issue.

Baja’s main power is that its incredibly cost effective and can just grind opponents to death if they are contained due to having soldiers of fortune and the other trickles. People often have to heavily mass into light infantry in order to counter the main bandido cuatrero comp which can often hold and win with enough mass but baja players have realised they can just pivot into 5 chinacos and then sweep.

so to tackle that removing the free 200 pop so they cant immediately also mass another outlaws easily in addition to the initial filibuster wave (immigrants still grant them 100 pop so its not complete nerf)- If they want to go longer they need to maintain a few filibusters to build houses. Initial filibuster wave is normally 15-16 so thats already half their pop budget, 5 bandido is 20 and 5 cuatrero is 25 so its cutting close

Then you nerf the cost effectiveness by nerfing soldiers of fortune

Disable chinaco so you cant pivot into cav support without going nats or something

16

A lot of this seems reasonable, but I’m not convinced all of it is required.

Per my suggestion the charged attacks already have half the AoE, and the revolt comes slower. It feels like doing even just the free immigrants tech would likely be enough to resolve the issues you brought up (assuming the aforementioned outlaw nerf). Temporarily disabling Chinacos also seem like a fine fix, but both, plus the AoE nerf, and removing their positive multipliers seems a bit much.

17

Inca archers +5 hp too.

18

Plus nerf to Curare Poison Card!

19

Beside balance, I’d like to adress the Italian Architect. Here’s what imo could be done:

  • Leave it as it is but make Architect foundations visible for all
  • Require the Architect to be in LOS for placement (i.e. like God Powers in AoM)
  • Allow the Architect to only lay one foundation at the same time
2 Likes
20

There’s 100% a bug that allows architects to create building blocking foundations. That’s most critical to fix.

7 Likes