TheViper & Nili state El Dorado needs to be nerfed to +30HP next, say it is still ridiculous upgrade

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

OK I changed it from “calls” to “states”

again, he isn’t actually asking for it to be nerfed. nothing at all. he simply made a remark.

[WhiteMagick4]

Just because people in the stream chat did not call him out on that, again is no way to judge whether Viper has a point or not.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

Well yes, and I am not doing that. All I am doing is pointing out that if Viper was Contradicting himself or stating a Logical Fallacy, at least someone would have pointed out in that chat of a thousand or so people

contradicting himself. like you mean saying something like
“without supplies mayans will be worse against goths” and a little bit later saying something like “maybe they should have nerfed el dorado by 10 hp instead”?

thank you for proving my point. he made those comments in isolation of each other.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

“without supplies mayans will be worse against goths” and a little bit later saying something like “maybe they should have nerfed el dorado by 10 hp instead”?

Yes he said both those things and he said to nerf El Dorado in full knowledge of the fact that Supplies was lost.
So as for the Viper, it is not a contradiction, as he stands by that opinion of his.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

Yes he said both those things and he said to nerf El Dorado in full knowledge of the fact that Supplies was lost.

but those statements contradict himself.
thank you for proving my point that he made those comments in isolation of each other.

still waiting for you to show me how a mayans player without supplies and 90 hp EEW would beat a goth flood.

@Parthnan

So as for the Viper, it is not a contradiction, as he stands by that opinion of his.

does he though? was he still thinking about the supplies change when he made the el dorado nerf comment? or had he moved on?

[JonOli12]

Arguing about what Viper said is irrelevant, he was wrong regardless.
Anyone that can imagine the Mayans vs Goths/Malians scenario, can see that Mayans could not win an Imperial Age fight, and it would be an auto-loss if the game got to that point.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

but those statements contradict himself.
thank you for proving my point that he made those comments in isolation of eachother.

Question 1: How did TheViper contradict himself here? It is not a contradiction if you ask me or him, as we stand by our stance.

Question 2: How are you so sure that TheViper forgot Mayans lost Supplies when he said “El Dorado from +40 to +30HP”, as you say he said them in isolation.

Question 3: Can you, @JonOli12 and @WhiteMagick4 not think of the possibility that he legitimately does want them to have 90HP EEW and no supplies vs Goths and all other civs?

Question 4: Can all of you not think that TheViper (and Nili) want the Mayans to remain weak vs Goths, and have not much trouble with them losing Supplies and 10 HP on eagles?

Question 5: How are you so sure that this is a mistake by TheViper on balancing, as most of his analysis are usually true with only the few mistakes being widely publicized.
I am a regular Viper watcher I know how accurate he really is.

[JonOli12]

@Parthnan

Question 3: Can you, @JonOli12 and @WhiteMagick4 not think of the possibility that he legitimately did want them to have 90HP EEW and no supplies vs Goths?

I can believe it. I can also believe that he did not put those to nerfs together, on the Mayans Tech Tree, and figure out that it would be an auto-loss scenario.

It is the same as trying to fight Flame Tanks with just Riflemen, in Command & Conquer. You cannot win.

[WoodsierCorn696]

@JonOli12

Arguing about what Viper said is irrelevant, he was wrong regardless.
Anyone that can imagine the Mayans vs Goths/Malians scenario, can see that Mayans could not win an Imperial Age fight, and it would be an auto-loss if the game got to that point.

Not all match ups can be 50%-50%. So why comparing against just those two civs only?

[JonOli12]

Because no matchups should be auto-losses either

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

Question 1: How did TheViper contradict himself here? It is not a contradiction if you ask me or him, as we stand by our stance.

Because he literally said “Mayans will struggle big time against goths now”, followed up immedially by (in your mind) suggesting YET ANOTHER NERF that would make them struggle against Goths EVEN MORE.

@Parthnan

Question 2: How are you so sure that TheViper forgot Mayans lost Supplies when he said “El Dorado from +40 to +30HP”, as you say he said them in isolation.

im not suggesting he did, i’m asking how you know he was still thinking about it. but you know what lends credence to my argument? why would viper admit that supplies would make them struggle big time agianst goths, and then immediately suggest another nerf to make things worse?

@Parthnan

Question 3: Can you, @JonOli12 and @WhiteMagick4 not think of the possibility that he legitimately does want them to have 90HP EEW and no supplies vs Goths and all other civs?

i think it wouldn’t be a very smart change overall. there is no reason a civ that already struggles against goths, would need two more nerfs against them.

@Parthnan

Question 4: Can all of you not think that TheViper (and Nili) want the Mayans to remain weak vs Goths, and have not much trouble with them losing Supplies and 10 HP on eagles?

they are already weak against goths, why would they need to be made weaker?

@Parthnan

Question 5: How are you so sure that this is a mistake by TheViper on balancing, as most of his analysis are usually true with only the few mistakes being widely publicized.

im not saying its a mistake, i’m saying that both nerfs would be a mistake. one or the other? sure. both? mayans might as well GG the moment they see Goths opponent.

@Parthnan

I am a regular Viper watcher I know how accurate he really is.

and yet he is human, makes mistakes (he even made mistakes in the video).

so yeah. i firmly believe that Viper wasn’t thinking about the Supplies Change when he made the El Dorado comments, because it would make ZERO SENSE for him to acknowledge that Mayans are ALREADY BAD vs goths, and then say “we should nerf them not once, but TWICE vs Goths”.

@WoodsierCorn696

Not all match ups can be 50%-50%. So why comparing against just those two civs only?

Because were not. the fact is that Mayans just got nerfed, and should be in a good spot post patch (not borderline OP anymore, but still a decent civ. but changing the El Dorado nerf to 30 health would completely trash them against the civ they are already hugely disadvantaged against.

let me put it another way
pre patch - mayans slightly too strong, but weak to goths.
post patch - mayans good, weaker against goths.
Parthnan patch (lose supplies and -10 EEW health) - mayans good, might as well instant gg to goths.

even matchups that are advantageous to certain civs (Goths vs other infantry civs (the goths get wrecked), Lithuanians vs Teutons and similar Civs (Lithuanians advantage), etc, at least hte opponents have a fighting chance.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

Parthnan patch (lose supplies and -10 EEW health) - mayans good, might as well instant gg to goths.

This is not my patch, this is TheViper’s patch and Nili also said El Dorado should be nerfed in the HP stat, though he didn’t give specific values.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

This is not my patch, this is TheViper’s patch and Nili also said El Dorado should be nerfed in the HP stat

you have no proof that they actually WANT BOTH changes. those comments were made in isolation of each other.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

you have no proof that they actually WANT BOTH changes. t

OK fine, I have already stated my arguments why they are likely suggesting a straight HP nerf only rather than adding Supplies and HP nerf.

Let’s talk about El Dorado nerf now, and not just about your claim that Viper and Nili have proposed the addition of Supplies to Mayans.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

OK fine, I have already stated my arguments why they might be suggesting a straight HP nerf only rather than adding Supplies.

and yet here you are still pushing for both.

@Parthnan

Let’s talk about El Dorado nerf now, and not just about your claim that Viper and Nili have proposed addition of Supplies to Mayans.

1. it wasn’t my claim that he wants both. it was yours. i claimed he made the comments in isolation of eachother

2. its simple. you can’t nerf el dorado without giving them back supplies (and potentially champion even, 2h swordsman alone won’t work against Huskarl Flood).

[WhiteMagick4]

@Parthnan

Can you, @JonOli12 and @WhiteMagick4 not think of the possibility that he legitimately does want them to have 90HP EEW and no supplies vs Goths and all other civs?

I have a suggestion. Ask him during his next stream. All I know now is that he contradicted himself.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

and yet here you are still pushing for both.

I am not pushing for these changes, TheViper and Nili are, as they said El dorado HP boost needs to be nerfed, but didnt say anything about adding Supplies.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

I am not pushing for these changes, TheViper and Nili are, as they said El dorado HP boost needs to be nerfed, but didnt say anything about adding Supplies.

show me where they actually asked for it to ACTUALLY happen. they made a statement. nothing more.

[Parthnan]

@WhiteMagick4

Ask him during his next stream.

What? You and @MatCauthon3 should ask him, as I am convinced he said it in full knowledge and is not contradicting himself

You are the ones saying TheViper contradicted himself, not me or TheViper himself.
And is Nili also contradicting himself?

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

You are the onc=es saying TheViper contraidiced himself

were working from the point of view of your argument.
your argument was that he completely remembered the supplies change while making the El Dorado change.

if that statement is true, and he is indeed suggesting mayans lose supplies AND 10 health on EW, he contradicts himself.