Viper never said that Mayans should lose supplies and have El Dorado nerfed at the same time and never commented on how these two nerfs would affect a Mayans vs Goths matchup. You’re making these claims.
I am only pointing out that he did not consider how an El Dorado nerf would affect the Mayans considering that they lost supplies too and do not have champion. This is a fact.
I would take Nilis argument with a huge grain of salt.
after all, this is the guy who in a tournament game, when playing next to a Lithuanians player, as a Teutons player, went Elite Teutonic Knight of all things.
I never said he commented on it, and he didn’t if you watch the video
Are you sure he did not factor it into his mind that Mayans would be both without Supplies and 10 less HP on EEW?
As far as I can see, he was fully aware the Mayans would have both those nerfs.
you’re literally the person here saying viper said we should nerf mayans both with health on eagles and lose supplies at the same time.
Yes. He argued that removing supplies would weaken the Mayans vs the Goths further and contradicted himself when he argued that El Dorado could be nerfed even more because he did not consider that this would weaken the Mayans even more vs the Goths. He clearly did not put these two together in his mind.
yes, we are sure. want to know how we know?
because when he was talking about supplies he said “Mayans will struggle big time against goths now”.
why would he then go and propose a nerf that would make it even worse afterwords?
NO he said “Mayans will become weaker vs Goths” and “El dorado should be +30HP not +40” in different times in the video
not together
BUT when he said El dorado should be +30HP, he had already read the patch notes that Mayans lost Supplies twice
Once in the patch video and once in the text
He was fully aware that Mayans will be without Supplies and have 90HP EEW
El Dorado is a strong tech, and Mayans would be a top pick even without it.
Mayans are already demolished by Goths in late game. I do not see a big difference if you nerf El Dorado or even remove the infantry line of mayans. They will be still destroyed. But they will be still one of the strongest civ in the game, since they have basically 1-2 bad matchups.
For me El Dorado can stay as it is, it would be a direct change of a top civ. Personally I think this is risky for people making money from the meta. For a casual player, buffing weak civs is preferable to nerfing the other one…
literally word for word his statement was “Mayans will struggle big time against goths now”
but that does not mean he is talking about them losing supplies and nerfing EW at the same time. if he is, he has contradicted himself.
its the difference between “I at least have a chance” and “imma gg at the start of the game”.
again, I don’t get your logic here
Point is, TheViper said both
“Mayans will struggle big time against goths now”
AND “El dorado should be made +30HP from +40HP”
These two statements are not necessarily opposites of each other
Like “It is raining” and “It is not raining” are
If I say those two at the same time, I am contradicting myself
and my point is that when viper said both, he was referring to them in isolation of eachother.
again i ask you. if Viper knows that Goths would wreck Mayans even harder post Supplies change.
why would he want to add insult to injury and make their eagles weaker too?
In late game Goths are hard to deal with for every civ. And it is also a matter of production speed. I do not think that Japanese ro Vikings can hold goth spam even with their superior UUs.
Mayans should take the advantage earlier. I agree that is is a very difficult matchup and I would prefer that mayans get FU champion, but still it is the only matchup where mayans are in clear disadvantage in 1v1 Arabia
they can because goth units don’t get final armor upgrade. coupled with vikings UU having regen, also vikings units have more HP, Japanese units attacking faster, aztec jaguar warriors, all of them trade very efficiently with goths. (all of them even have better ecos)
and i agree that it’s one of the only ones where they are clearly at a huge disadvantage. that doesn’t mean its okay to trash it even further.
every civ should at least have a fighting chance even if they should theorietically lose.
look at the recent 6 hour game between hera and mbl.
it was a 6 hour game, between turks and lithuanians. by any stretch of the imagination you would think that would be won by Lithuanians. and yet the Turks player won.
Again, you are going a bit too far from the topic, but i’ll answer anyway
In that Game Turk player had almost all the relics(all 5 iirc) and had more gold spawned in his half
Hera also had 30-35 hussar unused inside his base for more than an hour
no, i wasn’t off topic.
I was responding to a question asked, and used it as an example. the point is that just because a civ is bad against another, doesn’t mean you can nerf that matchup until “Bad” becomes “Auto Lose”.
ie, just because mayans already stink against goths, doesn’t mean that you can just make it worse.
Lets get back to the topic here
we’ve arleady made it clear. you can’t nerf el dorado without giving them SOMETHING so they have at least a fighting chance against goths.
I can understand that sentiment, but the fact remains that both TheViper and Nili certainly did not call for Supplies to be returned to the Mayans when stating El dorado HP nerf