Things Wrong WIth the Lakota

As long as the tone of the voice dialogue can be more powerful (especially in military units), the change could be fine.

I also think that there is an inordinate demand for historical accuracy to the extreme. The important thing is that the gameplay satisfies the majority of players more than making small historical adjustments.

1 Like

Wait, the Aztecs aren’t actually speaking Nahuatl? That is a weird oversight. There are a ton of people in Mexico and Guatemala who still speak the language, and there is also a small but not negligible community of archeologists, anthropologists and sociologists who have learned it in the US and Europe. It shouldn’t be that hard to implement.

1 Like

They are revisiting the civs one by one, so a rework of then could be possible.

We had the original TWC voices, the DE voices (that were very bad) and now we have DE 2.0 voices. The concerns are about the last new voices?

I could do a english mod to change the names of the units next month (I plan to do the same for some Indian units), but it don’t want to change gameplay for MP compatibity. Readding original Lakota voices could work if you said that are more accurate.

I think that any proposal shouldn’t be very deep and keep on mind current gameplay mechanics.

But I agree that Haudes could mine, that the Fur market could be redesigned to a “Hunting campament” or something like that (for me it could be placed on top of the mines, like the Mountain Temples, while attracting wild animals like the Granary) but correct me if there could be a better idea.

And what about change the name of “Community plaza” to a “Community gathering”? It doesn’t imply urban environment.

1 Like

This isn’t about small nitpicks to make bits of it more accurate - it’s about the fact that there is only one thing in the entire civ (minus some weirdly specific home city shipments) that are Lakota-specific references. Beyond those two things, the civ isn’t even specifically the Lakota - it’s just a vague amalgamation of every plains nation in existence.
Prior to the renaming of the Tokala Soldier from being the Dog Soldier, there were zero references in the civ that specifically make it the Lakota - if you gave the units new voicelines and called them the Cheyenne, they would be just as accurate. Can any other civ claim the same absurd level of genericness? You can’t rename the French to the Spanish and have it make sense - Gendarmes aren’t Spanish, the architecture wouldn’t match, and the special French units wouldn’t fit.
Prior to the DE, the Sioux could have been renamed to the Cheyenne and it would literally have been more accurate, since the only nation-specific unit or reference in the entire civ was the Dog Soldier, which is a Cheyenne warrior society. With the DE, however, it has been renamed to Tokala Soldier, which makes it the sole reference in the entire civ specific to the Lakota. (The Tashunke Prowler is too vague - Tashunke is an Oceti Sakowin word in general and not unique to the Lakota.)

Unfortunately, with what I stated in my quote towards the other person, I don’t believe anything short of a full rework from the foundation up would solve any of the problems the Lakota have. The civ is nothing but a generic amalgamation of plains nation-inspired aesthetics without a single gameplay mechanic that actually makes it any specific nation - You could rename them to the Mandan and it would be just as accurate. You wouldn’t even have to change the voicelines, and the Mandan are an entirely different nation that only happens to share some linguistic similarities with the Lakota. Even the flag is a vague wave towards plains nation aesthetics and would represent the Mandan as well as it does the Lakota.

1 Like

Yeah, probably it’s very problematic.

What I mean is that I could make a mod to rename units to make them closer to Lakota. (Mostly translated names)

Right know I don’t know how to change props and animations for kitbashing new models to fit better your vision, but without gameplay changes/stats (For MP compatibility). I would like to, BTW.

I had made a mod completely redoing the Lakota civ from the ground up as the Oglala, but I gave up and removed it. I dislike that I have to do the dev’s jobs for them. I feel like a parent nagging a kid to do the chores they promised they’d do two weeks ago, and it’s not a feeling I want to keep internally. I’d rather move on then try and do this for them when they are fully aware that they should have done it to start with themselves.

1 Like

Asian countries need to redo more, Asian countries have a bunch of bhg stereotypes and historical mistakes

Cards Review and the Home City

“Tribal Leader” - Just call them the Chief. Good lord. Itanchan Iyotan would be more accurate, but whatever. Tribes were led by the entire Council, not one person. The Chief’s main job was to get the Council into one tipi and then make sure they stayed on topic and didn’t spend the whole time gossipping like old women… because they mostly were old women.

  1. Team 2 Surgeons
    a. The Surgeon shipment weirds me out. During this time period, Native medicinal practices were often better than their Western counterparts, such as those of the US or Canadian Gov’ts. Make it a Team Advanced Healer card instead, letting the healers build cute little healing huts or something and giving allies one.

  2. War Chief
    a. Oddly enough, this shipment and name is a good one… but provided a very important change happens with the Lakota explorer; They need to be remade into a Heyoka, not a Warchief. A Warchief’s duty was to lead warriors and nothing else - the game starts off with no warriors to be led, so there would not be a Warchief in the first place. On the other hand, Heyoka are very important figures and a band would often only have 1 or 2 Heyoka in their numbers. Heyoka performed important duties like scouting, offering guidance, and generally being a nuisance. This fits very well with what the explorer-type unit does in the game, and it would bring the plus side of being a humorous figure to animate - Heyoka are, first and foremost, clowns. They would ride their horses backwards, wear summer clothes in the middle of winter, or claim a bowl of cold water was steaming soup. Their job is to remind people not to take life too seriously, and that we all die in the end anyway - in-game, the Lakota explorer could ride their horse backwards, throw a lance as a special attack, then use a bow in melee combat. The War Chief card could remain the same way it is, promoting the player’s Heyoka to that of a War Chief. This would make a lot of sense - Heyoka were expected to be the best of the best among the people, which is part of why there were often only 1 or 2 in a band. Thatanka Iyotake - Sitting Bull - was Heyoka. A fun model change with the card would be to grant a warbonnet with it being sent.

  3. Center of Power
    a. Stealth mode is fun. The name is weird, and doesn’t really relate to anything about the culture - might I suggest renaming it “Wisdom of the Great Hearts”? The Great Heart Akicita were known for their self-control in their thoughts and actions and valued it as one of their core ideals. This would make sense for the card’s image and upgrade - stealth being the epitome of self-control. Granted, if this was done, it would also imply that any Great Heart units would also have self-control, which might be a little odd if the Great Hearts are made as tanks with high health, but little damage.
    b. Alternate name could be “Silent Eater,” and let it do the same thing. The Silent Eaters were known for… well, being silent. Lol. They would make a poor unit, however, because they consisted of veterans too old to fight anymore, and were often the most heavily decorated soldiers, but well past their prime (I’m talking in their 70’s and 80’,s these members were old enough that they were having a hard time riding their horse anymore). (The name “Silent Eater” comes from them not having an Akicita tipi, so they’d just pick a member’s tipi and converge there. Hence, their Akicita’s tipi was silent because… well, it didn’t exist.)
    c. If the portrait of igmuthanka is used for the stealth upgrade instead, this card could be used as a general upgrade for the Great Heart units.

  4. Command Skill
    a. This name is so bland, a British cook thought it wasn’t spicy enough for their food. If possible, edit the background of the picture to be stormy in weather and call it Thunder Dreamer, then have it send a second Heyoka with the aura. (Note that my suggestions heavily involve removing the Community Plaza, so a second Heyoka with the same aura wouldn’t be as strong as you think.)

  5. Morning Star
    a. Anpao is the spirit of the morning and is the morning star, Venus. Rename it to “Anpo Wichapi,” but Anpao herself isn’t really associated with anything in particular, beyond the morning sky itself. The card’s function is… functional.

  6. 4 Native Scouts/Advanced Native Scouts
    a. Personally, I think the Native Scouts should be reworked into a Native-style mercenary system, where there are different types of scouts from different nations that do different things, but otherwise the card is… fine.

  7. Fur Pelts
    a. The renaming and icon is bland AF. Oddly enough, this card could be renamed “Silent Moccasins” and be the stealth card for the Heyoka, allowing the other card to be another upgrade for the Heyoka. Igmuthanka can be described as “having the right moccasins’’ to be stealthy and quiet, and she never gives you a chance to fight back before she strikes. Stories of igmuthanka mostly revolve around her being mysterious and elusive - even the Natives rarely saw igmuthanka, mostly just evidence that she was around.

  8. Team Conestoga Wagon
    a. What?

  9. Evening Star
    a. The Lakota didn’t name the evening star. Rename to “Star That Doesn’t Move,” (referencing Polaris, whose Lakota name literally translates to “Still Star”) or rename to “Dried Willow” (an important constellation) and give it a purpose more relating to medicine. A card specifically to improve Healers would be nice, or have this as a card to give the Heyoka the ability to heal. Dried willow bark is an important medicine to the Lakota.
    b. Alternatively, could replace the “Adoption” card with this and rename it to “Blue Woman,” the Midwife spirit, and do the same thing as the Adoption card.

the system crapped out and posted it at this point, so edits will be made past this. I don’t know why?

“Warrior” - Warchief would actually be a fitting title for this one lol

  1. Uprising
    a. What uprising? What is this even referencing? Where did this name come from? Call it “Akicita Assemblage” or something. Could do the same thing, provided it only sent Akicita.

  2. Wind Runner
    a. Again… what? Where did this name come from? If you really must, call it “Tamakoce Te’hila” with the same effect, or just give it a new name and purpose. I’m lost as to the origin of this.

  3. Marauders
    a. A marauder is someone who raids. Neat. Could have referenced something more interesting here. No suggestions, since this card needs to reference a specific unit and/or tribe. It’s situationally necessary to be renamed.

  4. Mustangs
    a. Our word for mustang is “sungnuni,” which generally refers to an untamable horse that isn’t to be bothered with, soo… this seems like a really poor choice of words for the card’s effects. If anything, it implies it should increase costs and training time. I’d suggest “Iglawamna,” or fresh horse or similar.

  5. Onikare
    a. I have literally never come across this word or any reference to it. Whoever came up with it must have found some extremely niche ceremony only mentioned once or twice in some vague book, or they just made it up. Could call it Akicita Dance and make it improve Akicita units, assuming they’re implemented.

I wanted to do the Tribal Leader and Warrior in one comment, then the Elder and Wise Woman in another comment. The Messenger will require its own comment, as the Support cards are in dire need of addressing.

4 Likes

That’s because it was never originally envisioned to be Lakota. It was supposed to be Sioux / Oceti Sakowin. The renaming was for political reasons, not historical reasons so they weren’t going to put in a bunch of effort to make it specific. Look at how much effort went into the “fur trade” system.

You may disagree, but I think it’s a good thing to have the “Lakota” civ be a bit more broad and give some representation to other tribes that were allies and culturally similar to the Lakota. If they were reworked to be a little more like the African civs and age up with alliances I think it could be achieved in a more respectful manner. Age 2 options could be choosing alliances/elders from the Lakota proper. Age 3 options could be choosing from closely related tribes like Dakota or Cheyenne. Age 4 and up could start to mix in French, Metis, and more distant tribes. That could give you useful stuff like horse artillery and Metis Courriers that could mine. It would also let you have a mix of closely related units such as ones that speak Dakota.

Haudenosaunee could have the same system with picking Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, Tuscarora, etc.

That approach could also work well for a PNW native civ since there’s also not a dominant nation in that region. Haida could be the civ at the core and age up alliances could bring representation to the rest.

5 Likes

I bet that’ll be an explorer skin at some point in the future.

The Lakota are one of the Seven Fires referenced in the Oceti Sakowin. It doesn’t reference the Seven Fires anymore than it references the Lakota.

I have to address this; The civ was, whether by intended design or not, fully designed to be 100% Lakota. There are zero references to Dakhota or Dakota culture within the civ’s design, legacy or DE. The people who created the civ clearly used only Lakota references for the design of the civ.

I’m not against this. My problem is that the base civ itself gives zero indication about what civ it is to start with - if it was called the Mandan or the Cheyenne, it would be just as accurate. In order to do any justice to calling in allies, you first need to establish what the base culture is. The civ as-is can’t even do that.

1 Like

This word is easy to find by Google.

‘Black Elk used the word ONIKARE for the sweat lodge of the Oglala, and the word INIPI for the
ceremonial rite of purification (Brown & Black Elk, 1953). Most other Native American authors and historians do not make this distinction.’

‘Black Elk describes this as follows: “The rite of onikare (purification) utilizes all the Powers of the universe: the earth and the things that grow from the earth, water, fire, and air. The water represents the Thunder-beings who come fearfully but bring goodness, for the steam which comes from the rocks, within which is fire, is frightening, but it purifies us that we might live as Wakan-Tanka wills, and He may even send us a vision if we are very pure.” (p. 31)’

1 Like

This would be why. I’m guessing that it’s an archaic term that the Oglala tribe had continued to use up to a certain point, but every other recording of onikare would have simply chose to use the more wide-spread word inipi instead of the weirdly tribe-specific archaic version of the word. Inipi is the word for it that is used today, which would also explain why nobody I asked knew what Onikare meant.

EDIT: Actually, I don’t think it’d be a Lakota word at all. The R sound isn’t even in the language, there is no reason it would be used in this specific stance at all. I’m guessing it’s a borrowed word from a nearby language that Black Elk encountered.

Hello @AnaWinters! We appreciate the time you’ve spent to write this post. I’ll forward this to the appropriate team for you. :+1:

10 Likes

Technically, I’m not done with it. I’m debating adding more, but I don’t know how much interest there actually is in the rest.

1 Like

Not to derail the thread, but a few years back I saw a great rework suggestion for the Aztecs from a Mexican player on reddit. They sadly need much more than a redub.

I’m interested if you decide to add more!

“Elder” - It’s not wrong. Boring, but not wrong.

  1. Black Arrow
    a. What is this referencing? Similar to the Onikare card, I cannot figure out what this is from. The closest I can get is the Dog Soldiers lashing themselves to the ground with an arrow through a sash, but nothing about that indicates it need be black or even references a color. I have nothing for this, because I have no idea where this is from or what it’s trying to reference.

  2. New Ways
    a. Honestly? Rename it to “Western Ways,” because the things given weren’t really that new by this point in time. For those of you who don’t know, the entire civ is based on a 30-ish year period from 1850’s → 1880’s. (One interview suggests it was based entirely on a single battle - the Battle of Greasy Grass, or Little Bighorn.) Other civs get to be based on centuries of existence, but we Lakota are apparently only important for these thirty years. It could retain the New Ways name if there was an attempt made to base the civ on a few hundred years of existence, but that would be surprising on multiple levels.

  3. Warrior Culture
    a. This could be a card specifically referencing the Akicita - I mean, you could combine the Pioneers card with this and call it “Akicita” and make it an Age 2 card that costs some food.

  4. Nomadic Expansion
    a. Name is an oxymoron, but this and the civ’s gameplay are both rather centered on the tipis. The two cards are a must for the civ to function. I think it’s weird that tipi are a military building. By the philosophy of the culture, they should be an economic building, first and foremost.

  5. Friendly Territory
    a. The concept of “friendly territory” should be what the entire civ is based on - the only war-oriented mindset the culture had was about defensive warfare, not offensive. The civ should focus on controlling portions of the map and defending those portions whilst booming, not proactive raiding. Weird as it may sound, but the easiest win condition the Lakota should be able to achieve is that of the Trade Monopoly - the Seven Fires were primarily a trading empire, not a military one. The Lakota were a significant portion of that trading influence.

  6. Advanced Farm/Estate
    a. The Lakota didn’t farm, and there certainly were no estates. Farming was so foreign a concept to us to do ourselves that we named one of our tribes after a couple people who gave it a go that happened to try it out - the Mniconjou, or “Plants by the Water”. They weren’t farmers, but they got stuck with the name. Farming and estates should not be a part of the Lakota economy. Their economy should focus around trade (when possible - some unique trade-post oriented cards and upgrades are a must) and replenishing of natural resources.

  7. Ranching
    a. Goes without saying, but remove it entirely.

Wise Woman - Sounds like the name of an old unci, or grandmother. Could just rename her Grandmother.

  1. All the Farm Travois cards
    a. Replace these with cards around improving hunting. In my own mod, I replaced farm travois, farming upgrade, and coin upgrade cards with cards that improved hunting yield, the speed at which bison were produced from the tribal marketplace, and the strength of the tribal marketplace’s coin generation aura. (Villagers had an autogather coin trickle when hunting near the tribal marketplaces, which in turn were the only direct way to gather from natural mines via Torp-like mechanics.) However, how y’all make the economy is up to you - but I highly encourage the economy be reworked entirely. The game’s understanding of economics are largely irrelevant to the Lakota concept of economy, so a unique economy is a must and is the largest problem with the Lakota.

  2. Fish Market
    a. We didn’t really fish. This is awkward. Anything to do with the water or a navy is going to be 100% just fantasy and made up. We made bullboats and some innovative Dakotas did birchbark canoes, but otherwise… water was not our strong suit.

  3. Sawmills/Exotic Hardwoods/Woodcrafting
    a. Due to the construction of tipis, we were actually quite good at felling trees and did it a lot. However, we didn’t use wood for fire very often - we’d often use bushes, grasses, and dried bison manure. A good reference to this would be a tech that reduces the cost of buildings, or converts some of the cost of buildings to food instead, especially since tipis are made of bison hide as well as wood.

  4. Food Silos
    a. An interesting alternative to this would be a tech that references pemmican, and the way we stored it - we’d dig holes in the ground and store it underground when overwintering somewhere. Pemmican is an astonishingly durable food, and there are stories of people finding pemmican in the modern day that was stored and forgotten about a hundred years ago or more and it still being fully edible. Pemmican is a dried meat crushed with berries and smashed into a paste. It’s quite good, honestly. Not dissimilar to jerky.

  5. Great Hunter
    a. It’s a weird card.

  6. Earth Bounty
    a. Rename it to “Grandmother’s Gifts.” You could keep the portrait. The thing is that we call the earth Unci Makha, or “Grandmother Earth.” Rather than calling it her “bounty,” it seems far more appropriate to call it her gifts - so, “Grandmother’s Gifts.” She allows us to use what is on her surface for our own life, but it is disrespectful to dig into her body without asking and without good cause. (And no, personal wealth is not “good cause”.)

  7. Adoption
    a. This is an unnecessary and disrespectful card. There’s many many problems in the modern day with the United States abducting children of the Seven Fires and putting them into adoption against the will of the parents, and with no justified cause - the state of South Dakota in particular has faced much backlash and lawsuits for this, as the state of SD automatically considers Native American children to be “disabled,” and thus eligible to earn the state more federal money. I went through the foster care system myself, and it treats Native American children abhorrently. I’ve seen perfectly capable mothers have their children removed from them because the state can accuse them of anything without evidence or proof and have her children taken from her because it earns them more federal money for the simple fact that they are Native American.
    b. I personally renamed the card to Mitakuyin Oyasin, which is the Lakota philosophical concept of togetherness. It means that everything is related - that the trees are your cousins, the swans are your siblings, and that everything is a child of Grandmother Earth. It’s one of the cornerstones of Lakota philosophy and theology and I thought it an appropriate replacement for “Adoption.”

  8. Land Grab
    a. Unnecessary. The whole cause of the wars between the Seven Fires and the USA was because of the US thinking they could grab any land they wanted and their habit of completely ignoring treaties they signed with the Seven Fires. I renamed this one to “Longgrass Prairies” and it reduces the spawn timer of bison from the tribal marketplaces, personally.

  9. Bison Shipment Cards
    a. I, personally, don’t think that the Lakota should be able to ship in bison. It makes the game far too easy if they can ship in bison like this - if anything, the town center big button tech should be a 3x use big button like the Aztecs and Haudenosaunee have, but instead of shipping in military, it should be an economic big button that ships in bison. Reflect that the Lakota weren’t the intensive war-like culture of our southern cousins, the Comanche, or the eastern Haudenosaunee. The empire of the Seven Fires existed from trade, and that trade centered on the bison.
    b. Removing the bison cards and allowing the Lakota to passively spawn bison over time from one of their buildings would be a much more sustainable economy for the civ, and would promote a healthier playstyle than the all-in or die playstyle they currently have, as they don’t scale past the Fortress Age and it would remove the heavy crutch the civ has on shipping in bison to exist at all.

  10. Old Ways
    a. I just feel like there’s a better name for this one. The New vs Old dichotomy makes it feel a bit too much like it’s looking down on this card while upholding the other, but I feel like the names should indicate something more akin to “two different paths.” The old ways aren’t better than the new ways, but neither are the new ways better than the old - they’re simply different approaches to the same questions.

I will do the Messenger cards on its own comment, this one is plenty long already and the Messenger cards have a lot of problems.

3 Likes

It makes zero sense to me, especially the hit points boost. Tipis are made to be portable, they aren’t defensive at all and wouldn’t block anything.

They should be purely economic. They could have the following functions:

  • A gathering boost like Granaries
  • A toggle to convert a fraction of the food yield from hunts to coin (would solve the mining problem) when in their radius of effect
  • The ability to pack up and redeploy
  • Other boosts enabled by cards (healing, wood gathering boost, increased yields, etc)

These could be mostly replaced by a Buffalo Pound building. More of a Cree thing but I don’t know if there’s anything else that would be reasonable for a bison generating structure.

They could function like how Haciendas generate cows but for bison instead. It would allow the Lakota to hunt all game instead of farm. The need to commit villagers to generating the bison would balance out the fact that hunting gathers much faster than farming. Combine this with Tipis that could convert a fraction of those food yields into coin, and you could also eliminate Plantations for Lakota.

I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of them being used by the Lakota. Our hunting methods primarily consisted of herding them off cliffs or into narrow passages and picking off stragglers.
Honestly, the Tribal Marketplace would work just fine as a building to create bison over time.