Thoughts about Hippocrates, Khopesh Swordsman, Bogsveigir and Onager

Age of Mythology: Retold Discussion
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Hippocrates, Khopesh Swordsman, Bogsveigir and Onager where added in AoMEE to fill gaps in those civilisations unit roster but they filled those gaps too well. They basically made the civilisations play too similar.
But I still think they are kinda missing in AoMR.

Hippocrates

I think a hero like him should be added to a Greek Minor god the same was the Argo is now unlocked by Aphrodite.

That would be a nice alternative to Apollos Temple of Healing so it should probably be in Heroic Age too.
I think the Argo should just be available to all the Greeks (with the other pantheons getting their own Hero ships too) and Hippocrates should be unlocked via technology instead.

Khopesh Swordsman

The Egyptians have one big gap in their Classical Age line up, a unit that counters Slinger.
The Spearman is really not good against Slingers especially ones with Electrum Bullets.

So my suggestion would be to bring back the Khopesh Swordsman but without bonus damage vs. Villagers and Caravans but instead with a decent pierce armour and low hack armour.
This way the Egyptians have a unit that can counter Slingers but is pretty much useless against any other units, including other Archers.

They don’t need to counter Turmae since they are already countered by Spearman thanks to having the Cavalry unity type now.
They would also be good against Peltasts though.

This addition would practically only impact Egyptian mirror matches.

Bogsveigir

Has already been added, they are just called Godi now.

Onager

Cheiroballista fall of a lot in late game. Arcus just outclass them in practically every way.
Since they are officially siege units I think they should behave a little more like Siege units.
What if they would get +1 Crush Damage per Projectile in Mythical Age. It could be though the Engineers, Burning Pitch or though the Champion Ranged soldiers technology.
This way they would be stronger vs. Buildings and Ships without being stronger vs. Infantry, Cavalry and Archers.
This way they would become a more interesting option in late game and not just a worse version of Arcus.
This way the Atlanteans would basically have a worse version of the Norse Ballista, but still better then nothing.

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Hippocrates as a Hero I do miss getting him. Getting him from a tech (Medicine) in Classical Age I would love.

Khopesh Swordsman being a Classical Age anti-ranged Infantry unit I would have no problem with that.

Bogsveigir I loved because it allowed you to make a normal unit (Archer) that Atlanteans Fanatics didn’t do bonus damage against and unlike the Godi (Hero) in AoMR was a 2 pop unit.

Cheiroballista no longer get more speed from Drafts Horses and improved attack from Engineers. I miss Atlanteans getting Onager from AoM EE because it allowed them to finally bombard buildings from long range something only they couldn’t do.

Bring back the Axe of Muspell for Norse :fire:

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I don’t think that he should be generally available to the Greeks especially not in Classical Age.
That would essentially just remove their weakness of not having reliable healing.

Not anti ranged, only anti Slinger. Slingers are already anti range.

Godi are perfectly fulfilling the job. Norse don’t need a generic Archer unit, they can easily handle Fanatics in other way like with the Ballista.

I really don’t get this change. They were already bad in Heroic and Mythical Age now they are even worse.

Defences are not strong in AoMR so they don’t really need a long rage siege.

Why? Godi are perfectly fine against flying myth units.

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He is a Classical Age Greek Physician from real life so I would love the theme of getting him from researching Medicine in the Classical Age especially when only Poseidon can’t get Temple of Healing from Apollo making him the only one without a reliable way to heal all your units.

Decent Pierce armor would make them a anti-ranged unit except against Throwing Axeman who do hack damage and bonus damage against Infantry.

Godi (Hero) are 3 pop unit that is also slower then Fanatics doesn’t feel good to use against mass Fanatics.
Ballista are expensive slow moving 4 pop unit that are easily killed when you get into melee against them.

Making a change to fix a issue that I didn’t see as a actual issue from games played and watched I don’t like so yes I didn’t understand it either.

I know they aren’t as strong but still can be a problem with them when defended by enemy military and especially against Freyr where you can have your Gatherers and Dwarves repair buildings for free and have unlimited Asgardian Bastion that a player can afford.

I don’t like having having a old tech gone and would like it to be available in Classical Age like it became in AoM EE so you have some way to deal with Flying units like the Stymphalian Bird when your stuck in the Classical Age of which Godi (Hero) can’t be trained yet in AoMR.

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ewwww

absolutely not, keep EE out of my retold please and thank you.

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The Classical Age in AoM has little to do with the Classical Age in real life.

The “Heroic Age” for the Greeks was the Age where all the myths take part in which is essentially the Bronze Age.
The Classical Age was long after the Bronze Age so technically long after the Heroic Age.

Also Hippocrates is a historic person so I think the hero should be renamed.

The idea is that they would not be strong enough to be cost efficient against any normal Archer unit, especially not one that has bonus damage vs. Infantry.
So they would basically one be useful against Slingers.

You don’t need Godi vs. Fanatics.
Throwing Axeman are good at dealing with them.

Freyr is still way worse at defence then any of the Egyptian gods.

No they cost Favour. Favour is more valuable then other resources so it’s basically always a better choice to just build a Hill Fort.

Stymphalian Birds are not strong and there is no other flying Heroic Age myth unit.
Also they have very little hack armour so they practically already take extra damage from Throwing Axeman.

Did you read my suggestions or did you just reply to the title?

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yes I have and I stand by my previous statement.

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The Ideas are interesting.
I’d do it differently. But the way I’d do it would probably be very unpoular.

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A unit like that could also beat Peltast and Turma if they can get close enough.

Norse only have Myth units and Siege units for combat units on land that take 0 bonus damage vs. Fanatics that is not good then you have Fanatic (Hero) making Myth units not safe either and now have more Mythological techs that make them stronger. I really want Bogsveigir for a 2 pop Archer unit that Fanatics do zero bonus damage to.

But he does have his advantages like I said with free repair cost and able to have his vills repair to go with unlimited build limit of those Asgardian Bastion that yes is only put in check at all by favor cost. That and his strong military around the defenses can cause some issues for Atlanteans trying to take out a area with no long range Siege.

They still pose a threat when all you have is Throwing Axeman without that tech in Classical Age and your stuck in there.

There are reasons why some stuff from The Titans and then Extended Edition added/changed the stuff they did and for good reason IMO and it still applies to AoMR.

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Peltasts are a Heroic Age unit so you have the Camel Rider as a better option, the Turma takes bonus damage from Spearman so you’d rather use them.

Norse are already strong and Atlanteans are generally weak. This is not a real issue.
Fanatics are not that good.

So many Asgardian Bastions take ages to build and a lot of favour. You basically have to be in Wonder Age for that.
There is other things that are way stronger when you enemy has too much favour.
One Earthquake can flatten how many of those at once?

Freyr is currently the weakest of the Norse gods in general.

If you are stuck in Classical Age so long that the enemy can mass a Heroic Age myth unit you deserve to lose.

AoM gave each civ a specific weakness so that each of them played differently.
AoMEE decided to remove all of them so they all started feeling less unique. Yes it was balanced but balanced in a boring way. If you want boring balance play AoE2.

AoMR decided to go back to old AoM and gave every civs a weakness again.
They did reduce the weaknesses of the Norse though so maybe that’s why they are performing so much better despite having 5% worse villagers now.

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Axe of Muspell would a nice addition in classical Age to not get overwhelmed by stymphalian birds since Godi need Age 3 to be availible. But Godi is almost only a counter to mythic units since his base damage is extremly low, he does not fulfill the role of the Bogsveigr. Godi could have more base damage, honestly i do not even think he does great against most mythic units with the high armor

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They would be a cheaper choice then Camels and easier to get a lot out.

You shouldn’t have a single unit that can do bonus damage against against practically everything especially when it can become a hero with all those Mythological techs that is bad game design. Fanatics are underrated by people.

God I hate the Wonder Age I wish they would give a option to disable it in custom games.
I have seen Earthquake fail to destroy such buildings once upgraded with Masons and Architects especially when they can be repaired while taking damage regardless that is something Atlanteans don’t have access to only Greeks.

That depends but overall he has 3rd highest win rate of all gods in the game right now in 1v1 games.

With other enemy troops around it doesn’t take a ton of them to be a problem. Adding that tech will allow Throwing Axeman to be able to do better at taking out Flying units. There is no reason not to have that tech return its not like it would make Godi (Hero) be obsolete in anyway shape or form.

AoMR has serious balance issues that shows at different player ELO ratings and game types. I have been seeing a lot of complaints in comment sections in videos and streams and it has been turning off people from playing the game. I have also seen from people who still play anyways then play 1 or 2 gods so much depending on the balance patch its crazy and that has even been effecting lobby games I host where I don’t see as much variety of gods being used by players as I would of when I played other versions of the game in lobbies.

I don’t like AoE II except for the campaign because of how all the civs are so similar as well as no infinite Food and Gold that can be gathered from a building. AoM civs in all versions of the games have been much more different compared to each other then what it is with AoE II. AoM is the first RTS game of the franchise I loved and its top 2 along with AoE III for favorite RTS game but each game could use some changes here and there to be better.

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I never understood why they’ve gone with hippocrates instead of Asclepius, it doesn’t make sense to me…

Anyway greeks have access to plenty of healing now, as the temple of healing was buffed, regenerations is recastable, and both hydra and cavalry regenerate.

Shouldn’t you just go slingers yourself? Anyway I don’t see a place for kopesh warriors, if not as a special heavy infantry unit, maybe reserved as a unique unit for a 4° major egyptian god.

Don’t really miss that one, and cheroballosta still have it’s uses as a counter unit. Besides, atlanteans have plenty of siege units, they don’t need another one.

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The reason I’d add the Kopesh guys would be that they look cool and fit the egyptians. Not because they should counter slingers while being pretty much useless otherwise. (which, as described, I doubt they actually would be)

The way I’d add them would be as a second type of massproducable hero called the medjai, available from the heroic age at the town center and the migdol. They would be meelee heroes to complement the priest and pharao who are both ranged heroes.
The original game had a tech called medjai, but it doesn’t exist anymore, and the medjai were the protectors of the pharao. The Pharao respawns at the town center, that’s the reason why I’d allow medjai to be trained there, and not for any gameplay reason.
You can argue that they would take over the spot of the mercenary that way, but let’s be honest, mercenaries are useless as is. They only way they ever see combat is if you build them right as your towncenter is being attacked. At which point, they’re not gonna be available in large enough numbers to make a big impact.
You can argue that they’d take over the spot of the priest, once available, but even if they’re stronger in combat, they wouldn’t have a ranged attack against flying myth units and wouldn’t be able to heal allies, so they still don’t take the utility away from priests.

That’s what I’d suggest, regarding the Kopesh guy. Is it well thought out? I don’t think so. I haven’t put that much effort into the the idea to be confident enough about it to argue it should be added to the game just like this.

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Why Mythic? As you mention, they fall off because of the Arcus, so why not some bonus to make them more viable in Heroic?

Yeah tbh I wish they did get those. They’re already poor enough.

Your proposal though was to give them bad hack armour and decent pierce armour. That would, necessarily, make them at least decent vs archers like toxotes and arcii. In fact, even without the bonus damage vs vills, it would make them decent raiding units, since they’d be able to tank damage from TC and tower arrows.

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Though that could better be fixed by moving Godi to Classical Age, right?
If future Pantheons get strong Heroic Age or even any Classical Age flying myth units (Caladria don’t count because they can’t attack) then this change might be necessary.

Godi have a higher base damage then Arcus Heroes but with a lower DPS and both have the same modifier vs. Myth units.
Arcus Heroes cost a lot more though, even normal Arcus are almost as expensive as Godi.
Godi also have more HP and armour.
Godi cost one more population though but they also generate Favour instead of costing Favour.

Godi don’t really have to be that good since Norse still have Hersirs and they did pretty well with just Hersirs in the past.

Yes but Camels would still be more cost efficient.
Also Slingers are just a lot better against Archers in general.

I think it’s ok for one unit to be particularly good against one Pantheon. This way the winrates of Atlantean vs. Norse can be relatively easily be balanced by just tweaking this one unit.

A similar case would be the Prodromos that counters every Migdol unit.

You can follow up Earthquake with an attack.

Atlanteans have Fire Siphons and Destroyers that are pretty good at dealing with buildings.

Also all the Mythical Age Minor Gods give you something to help with siege, Helios makes your Fire Siphons a lot stronger, they should even outrange Fortresses with all upgrades.
Atlas makes your Destroyers take half the Pierce damage making them take almost no damage from defensive buildings.
Hekate buffs all Myth units which can boost units like Behemoths pretty significantly.

But shouldn’t Atlanteans be super good against Norse in general anyway because of Fanatics, according to your logic.

That would make a lot more sense.
He is a son of Apollo though so it would be strange to give him to another god.

You have to choose Apollo though.

I’d love to see a healing hero with the 4th Heroic Age Minor god being added in a future Gods pack.

That is what makes Egyptian mirror matches in Classical Age so boring. Just having one viable unit is not really interesting.
This also applies to the Campaign where you often have to fight in Classical Age or are even limited to Classical Age.

I like this idea too though.
I wish there were more Major God specific human units, not just for Greeks.

Medjay originally refers to Nubian people so it made sense that it was an upgrade for mercenaries.
They would make sense as a unique unit or technology for a 4th Nubian Egyptian Major god.

I think the Atlanteans should not get a Siege bonus that early.

I know that.
Unless they literally get a bonus damage vs. Slingers they will be decent at fighting under TC fire and decent at killing villagers.
I don’t think that would be bad.

The boring solution to Egyptian Classical Age would be to give Spearman a bonus damage vs. Slinger (or counter Archers in general) but AoMR tried to remove all unit specific bonus damages.

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Sure, but it isn’t an upgrade for mercenaries anymore. And in the state the mercenaries are in when I last checked, they are a red herring unit, good for wasting gold once on something that will give you literally nothing in return, so you learn to watch how you spend your resources.
I don’t remember if mercenaries ever were worth considering in any situation, with or without the medjai tech.

The point is, there is no mention of medjai in the game anymore. Neither in the context of nubian people, nor in the context of the pharaos bodyguards.
So giving a unit that name makes sense if you ask me. And giving that unit a khopesh would kill two birds with one stone.

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It is better to give Axe of Muspell back to Norse in Classical age then to give Godi (Hero) because with those Hero Norse will be much better at dealing with Myth units especially ranged ones like Centaurs. Can’t understand why you are having a problem with getting that tech back that you would think its better to just give Godi (Hero) in Classical Age instead.

I find it funny they changed Caladria stats to help Norse deal with them when using Throwing Axeman when they could of just gave Axe of Muspell back to the Norse for that.

Yes Camels are better but not as easy to get out in good numbers.
Well Khopesh Swordsman do have the advantage of speed forcing fights that Slingers wouldn’t be able to force all the time.

1 unit doing bonus damage against almost everything is horrible and I hate it which is why I loved when they added Bogsveigir to Norse in Extended Edition.

I think it was IamMagic talk about that in a stream and he doesn’t like how 1 single unit for a civ can do bonus damage against everything from a Migdol Stronghold.

Again Earthquake is for Greeks not Atlanteans so done talking about that god power when it doesn’t apply.

Fire Siphons and Destroyers are good when they can safely get close enough to attack buildings but they don’t have the range to safely bombard buildings forcing the enemy to move out enough to stop them like all other civilization do. Helios isn’t available to all the Atlanteans and even with that tech from last I have seen maxes out their range to 20 which is the exact same as Hill Forts have.

Fanatics are strong but not all Fanatics are equally as strong its about what god your playing with the Mythological techs you have as options as a result and they also aren’t that great at taking out buildings when under so much fire from buildings and units so they don’t guarantee victory just make it much harder in situations.

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They got buffed in the last patch.

Having a 4th god that makes Egyptians aggressive instead of defensive would work well with Khopesh Swordsmen and also the Nubian theme I think.

The main reason Godi were added to the game is to deal with flying myth units.
This technology would remove the main reason Godi exist.
Also this technology brakes the pattern of every mythical technology being unlocked by a god. It was just available to all Norse players.

For every person that liked the addition there were 5 that hated it.
Maybe you just have to accept that other people have different opinions here.

I mixed up some numbers, they max out at 20. Fire Ships get the +4.

Fire Siphones have 90% pierce damage anyway so they barely take any damage from defensive buildings. Does it really matter if they outrange them if they are practically immune to them?

Fanatics have strengths and weaknesses like any other unit, they are not overpowered against Norse.
Throwing Axeman do 3x bonus damage vs. Fanatics and Ballista do a lot of Pierce damage at a huge range.

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Gondi are kinda meh tbh.