I totally agree with Hera’s list of units and really think that wei cavalry is too OP. So i am forced to rush wei in feudal age hard and try to make enough eco win early, otherwise i am dead to tiger cav.
3 Likes
It’s funny how slim the margin for a cav UU is to be either basically useless or OP.
Maybe reduce their Attack in Castle age a bit?
1 Like
I would reduce first the bonus hp from kills to +5hp…
I don’t think the main problem with Tiger Cavalry is simply that it is too strong.
The bigger problem is its growth curve.
| Area | Current problem | Suggestion |
|---|---|---|
| Kill-based growth | Makes Tiger Cavalry snowball as it gets kills | Remove it |
| Castle Age ranged armor | 4 ranged armor is extremely strong this early | Start at 3 ranged armor |
| Imperial Age ranged armor | It actually falls behind relative to other late-game cavalry | Increase to 4 with Plate Mail Armor |
| Full ranged armor | Should have a clear high-end cavalry defensive identity | 4+4 |
| Melee armor | Needs a clear weakness if ranged armor is this high | Keep it relatively low |
| HP | Currently tied to the growth system | Normalize it |
| Movement speed | 1.35 combined with high armor may make it too complete | If Elite reaches 5+4, consider 1.3 |
| Ming-Guang Armor | Currently tied to Tiger Cavalry | Move the kill-based growth to it |
If Elite Tiger Cavalry is going to have 5+4 armor, I would consider reducing its movement speed from 1.35 to 1.3, with the non-Elite version also at 1.3.
This would give Tiger Cavalry a clearer identity without making it strong in every aspect.
It can be very resistant to ranged attacks, while still having lower melee armor and lower mobility as its weaknesses.
As for the technology tree, I think further changes are needed to make Wei feel more like Wei.
However, that would make this proposal much longer, so for now I’m only focusing on the changes related to Tiger Cavalry.
1 Like
Just remove Wei from ranked. Problem solved.
5 Likes
Starting at 3 ranged armor sounds like an fine change to me, but imperial age it gets 5+2==7 ranged armor (same as Paladin). If the imperial ranged armor is too low (and I don’t think it is), then adding pierce armor to elite is easier than adding the last armor tech (which affects their other cav as well, including their already-strong Hei Guang cav). Melee armor meanwhile starts at 0, and only gets high after Ming Guang armor (which affects all Cavalry)
I personally do like the idea of Tiger cav being an anti-ranged unit specialist while Hei Guang function as a strong melee unit. But going for that suggests that nerfs are better targeted in their melee combat abilities rather than their ability to survive ranged attacks (or in other words, nerfs to HP and damage rather than to pierce armor). Or to acknowledge their strength by raising their cost/train time.
I’ll also note that cavalry aren’t really defensive units. Their strength is mobility, something that’s usually better when you’re on the offensive and can use it to raid the enemy base and otherwise pick your fights. As opposed to the defensive, where picking your fights usually often means losing buildings (such as the castle you need to produce tiger cav).
Yeah Tiger Cavalry is a bit strong, Wu are fun though, im glad the 3 kingdom civs are here. They are so unique.
I worked out five Tiger Cavalry variants based on movement speed, from 1.25 to 1.45.
The slower versions have higher HP and stronger kill-based growth, while the faster versions are more expensive and less durable.
All versions get the full armor upgrades, reaching +3/+4.
Golden Crown is changed into a kill-based upgrade, unlocking the additional growth through kills.
The idea is to make mobility the main trade-off.
| Speed | Cost | Normal Attack | Normal HP | Normal Armor | Elite Attack | Elite HP | Elite Armor | Attack Interval | Max Growth |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1.25 | 60F 70G | 11 | 120 | 0/4 | 14 | 160 | 0/6 | 1.8s | +4 Attack / +40 HP |
| 1.30 | 60F 75G | 11 | 120 | 0/4 | 13 | 150 | 0/5 | 1.8s | +4 Attack / +40 HP |
| 1.35 | 60F 80G | 11 | 115 | 0/3 | 13 | 140 | 0/4 | 1.8s | +3 Attack / +30 HP |
| 1.40 | 70F 80G | 11 | 110 | 0/3 | 13 | 130 | 0/4 | 1.9s | +2 Attack / +20 HP |
| 1.45 | 75F 85G | 10 | 100 | 0/3 | 13 | 120 | 0/4 | 2.0s | +2 Attack / +20 HP |
I think pierce armor with everything else so complete should be much more expensive or should have a much bigger other weakness.
It could be slower speed, but than its worse vs what it counters.
Exactly. I think reducing the base speed from 1.35 to 1.30 would be a reasonable trade-off for 5+4 pierce armor while still keeping the unit functional.
That would give Wei a clear weakness without taking away the mobility that makes the unit feel like Wei heavy cavalry.
I’d much rather see that than relying on a growth mechanic just to reach the stats the unit should naturally have.
If the unit is supposed to counter archers… high hp, high speed and high PA is ok…
The unit can be nerfed in several other ways
reduce their special ability (either less hp or attack or both)
reduced base attack (that the unit relies more on their bonus vs archers)
nerf the UT that gives +4ma so they keep them as a subpar melee vs melee unit
I agree that there are several ways to balance it without simply nerfing everything.
I also don’t think reducing HP is the best option. The Hei Guang + Xianbei Raider system is already quite low-HP.
If we step back from 9 PA, 8 PA actually gives us much more design space. It could keep normal or even slightly above-average speed without making the unit too hard to balance.
9 PA is a very high benchmark for cavalry, while 8 PA could still make Tiger Cavalry a very strong anti-archer unit without forcing such heavy weaknesses elsewhere.
I’d rather see the balance come from clear trade-offs than simply reducing its HP.
What if we just remove kill-scaling and just add 10hp instead to base unit?
No to more hp per kill. Just add only the attack, like the jaguar warrior. Less melee armor also.
1 Like
This is my idea for a Wei rework, for Tiger Cavalry.
It may not be better for fast aggression than the current concept, but it feels more like the Wei I have in mind: strong mobilization, military industry, cavalry, cavalry archers, and mobile siege warfare.
Wei
Civilization Identity
Military Industry, Cavalry, Cavalry Archers, and Mobile Siege Warfare
Civilization Bonuses
1. Martial Strength of Wei
Each Blacksmith technology researched grants +1 population limit and supports 5 population.
(Total +15 pop limit and support 75 pop)
2. Tomb Raider Officers
Killing an enemy unit grants 10% of that unit’s resource cost.
3. Mining and Metallurgy
Each Mining technology researched increases the power of Mangonel-line units, Thunder Catapult, and Siege Onager by +10%.
(Total +40%; Onagers have higher damage than other civs’ Siege Onagers)
Bonus damage isn’t affected.
Team Bonus
Melee Cavalry, excluding the Scout line, gain +2 attack against buildings.
Castle Silver Crown
Tuntian
Military units passively generate Food.
Farm construction speed +100%.
Imperial Gold Crown
Ming Guang Armor
Mounted units (Cavalry, Cavalry Archers, and Camels) take -3 damage from Spearman, Skirmisher, and Scout lines.
Elite Technology
Elite Units
Simultaneously upgrades:
- Elite Tiger Cavalry
- Elite Xianbei Raider
Cost: 1000 Food, 800 Gold
Tiger Cavalry
Cost: 60 Food, 75 Gold
| Normal | Elite | |
|---|---|---|
| HP | 120 | 150 |
| Melee Attack | 10 | 12 |
| Archer Attack | 5 | 7 |
| Reload Time | 1.8 | 1.8 |
| Melee Armor | 0 | 0 |
| Pierce Armor | 4 | 5 |
| Movement Speed | 1.3 | 1.3 |
Role: Anti-ranged cavalry
The Tiger Cavalry isn’t meant to beat Hei Guang Cavalry or Cavalier in a straight 1v1. Its main strength is its very high Pierce Armor and bonus against ranged units.
Hei Guang Cavalry
Cost: 65 Food, 65 Gold
| Normal | Heavy | |
|---|---|---|
| HP | 80 | 110 |
| Melee Attack | 11 | 13 |
| Reload Time | 1.8 | 1.8 |
| Melee Armor | 3 | 3 |
| Pierce Armor | 2 | 3 |
| Movement Speed | 1.35 | 1.35 |
Upgrade: 750 Food, 350 Gold
Role: General-purpose melee cavalry
Xianbei Raider
Cost: 65 Wood, 35 Gold
Produced at the Castle
| Normal | Elite | |
|---|---|---|
| HP | 40 | 50 |
| Pierce Attack | 5 | 5 |
| vs. Infantry | +1 | +1 |
| vs. Spearmen | +3 | +5 |
| Charge | 30 sec | 30 sec |
| Range | 4 | 4 |
| Reload Time | 1.8 | 1.8 |
| Melee Armor | 0 | 0 |
| Pierce Armor | 0 | 1 |
| Movement Speed | 1.4 | 1.4 |
Charge Fire
Normal:
Same as now
Elite:
+1 missile
The normal Cavalry Archer line is retained.
Technology Tree Changes
| Building | Changes |
|---|---|
| Archery Range | - Hand Cannoneer - Arbalester +Cavalry Archer-line - Xianbei Raider production (Move to Castle) |
| Barracks | - Halberdier |
| Stable | Knight line replaced by Hei Guang Cavalry + Camel line |
| Siege Workshop | - Heavy Scorpion + Thunder Catapult (Bombard Cannon) |
| Dock | - Demolition Raft line - Cannon Galleon line |
| University | - Bombard Tower - Heated Shot - Dry Dock - Incendiaries - Shipwright |
| Castle | - Trebuchet - CaoCao + Xianbei Raider production |
| Monastery | - Atonement - Redemption - Heresy - Faith |
| Blacksmith | Complete |
| Economy | Complete |
The main idea is to give each unit a clear role rather than making every unit universally strong.
Hei Guang Cavalry is the general-purpose melee cavalry.
Tiger Cavalry is specialized against ranged units.
Xianbei Raider is specialized against Spearmen.
The Camel line provides the anti-cavalry option.
The Thunder Catapult gives Wei a mobile siege option, while Mining technologies further improve its siege weapons.
Wei doesn’t have Hand Cannoneer, Arbalester, or Halberdier, so it doesn’t have a dedicated high-efficiency answer to large Militia-line armies. That’s an intentional weakness, but Wei can still trade through its economy, military production, and population support.
The goal isn’t to make Wei good at everything.
It’s simply the Wei I have in mind.
I don’t like them as they are introducing heroes to multiplayer. I would much prefer them to do actual medieval chinese civs instead and give this to chronicles alongside huns, i dont care. To much civs in multiplayer roster anyway.
back to topic:
That onager dmg will be quite a punch.
Otherwise its quite a shakeup. Can’t tell you how it would go.
Yeah, the Onager damage is probably the part that needs testing.
The idea is actually a bit different from just giving them a flat damage bonus. There is already a precedent with Counterweights, the Saracens’ Imperial Unique Tech, which gives the Trebuchet and Mangonel line +15% damage, including attack bonuses.
For Wei, the mining technologies effectively let the siege line reach the next upgrade’s firepower.
So after the relevant techs, Mangonels can reach Onager-level firepower, while Onagers can reach Siege Onager-level firepower.
However, in Castle Age you still only have Mangonels. Getting all four mining technologies needed to reach the Onager-level firepower is something that would generally happen in mid/late Castle Age or even Imperial Age.
For me, Onager may actually be the highest level players aim for with Wei. It can already have Siege Onager-level firepower without necessarily requiring the Siege Onager upgrade.
Siege Onagers also tend to have some overkill in actual fights, since their damage can be much higher than what is needed to kill the units they hit. So the extra upgrade isn’t necessarily as valuable as the raw damage numbers might suggest.
I also think increasing damage is safer than increasing range here. Extra range would directly improve the Onager’s safety, kiting potential, and ability to engage without taking risks. Damage mainly increases the punishment when the shots actually connect, and Siege Onagers already have quite a bit of overkill in many situations.