unbalanced portuguese cheap ass rebauld thats even kills heavy cavalry. Nothing new to say.
4 Likes
The old oppressive Gatling Guns had approximately the same stats before they got nerfed so it might be needed for late game. Organ Guns also have extra range so it’s even harder to get to them with cav and culvs.
I think at least bumping up their population to 5 might be needed so they can’t make such an effective death ball in the late game. Maybe also dropping their cav multiplier to x0.4.
2 Likes
I assume this change is focused for treaty or teams or FFA as for 1v1 the history of organs is
cannon is the worst in all of aoe3 for over 10 years to the point of being almost an insult to send.
fix target lock.
omgffggggughhhh this is sooooo op!!
reduce target lock
omgffffg i still cant right click ports this is bad, BAD i say!
these things are worse than falcs vs other buildings or art but do shred infantry better per a res. where they do get silly is when they are fast but otherwise, preform the same as coffee mill gats per a res without the full target lock gats get factored in vs opponents not willing to let their infantry mass die idly.
its also on ports who treaty or late late game is pretty much middle of the road. I can see these being a pinch to much in some situations, but certainly no worse than gat spam or a mass of GBs iirc culvs are a bit less efficient vs them than gats, but still kill them easily enough
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Admittedly this is more of a late game issue and I’ve only faced it in FFA or unequal team games. But when it does happen it is very oppressive and not fun to deal with. They shouldn’t be able to make a monocomp death ball that deletes everything in its path.
First of all, I don’t think your assessment is correct. They are better than gats by most metrics. They are faster, longer range, have greater AoE and and much less of a malus against cav. The only way they are worse is in cost and don’t have continuous fire (but longer range and a big enough mass mitigates this).
Even culvs are not an efficient counter to them. Against a big enough mass of them, culvs will only get one shot off before they close the distance. Assuming you’re microing perfectly and no culvs target the same OG, you might kill 5-10 OG before they close the gap and gun down your 5-10 culvs (which are 500-1000 resources more expensive). The more this scales up, the harder it is to micro the culvs while the OG just needs to attack move. Even if you do win efficiently, having a remaining army of a dozen culvs is hardly a great composition to counterattack. And this is all assuming you’re playing a civ with culvs.
Against cavalry, OG do half damage instead of quarter damage like gats so that’s a huge difference. They’re also faster and longer range so they can kite a lot better than gats. Any walls, choke points, or an ally screening them with anti-cav and you’re toast. Also any cav that rely on resistances instead of high base health don’t even have a chance of closing on them.
To even think of facing them you need at least an equal mass of counter units with an equal tech level. But a mass of 20+ of OG has enough siege to wipe your base so you have to constantly re-mass while rebuilding your entire eco and production capability.
That being said, they’re not a particularly strong unit early on and require a critical mass to break the game so nerfs should target the late game. I think bumping up their population from 4 to 5 and reducing their cav multi from x0.5 to x0.4 would be enough to nerf the late game death ball without making them totally useless under normal circumstances.
I think 5 pop would be bad. Just reduce the damage vs cav when grape shot comes in. They’re fine in 1v1 and I like them actually being good late game. Grape shot increases the RoF slightly and multipliers to counteract that vs cavalry and artillery would be a good move (ie there should be no net DPS increase vs cav and artillery with grape spot).
I’ve always rather liked them, but at 5 pop I think I just go Horse Artillery. That would be kinda sad.
Admittedly, I’m a bit biased here. I’ve had fun with the organ gun buffs.
3 Likes
i think best bet would just to target the driveby organ card a pinch, maybe reduce its speed or like coffee mill reduce its dps vs cav to help it not scale too well. after all, at 5 pop it just becomes a cruddy falc…again.
and remember usa has many more cards to buff gats/artillery in general ports have 20%hp and caseshot. in treaty these cards are common but in 1v1 hardly ever seen so i feel like nerfing case shot is a bit more effective to help port retain some use of the previously useless port while nipping some of the scaling issues. imho
1 Like
Horse Artillery are 6 pop and cost 200 resources more. Even at 5 pop OG are the much better option.
Horse Artillery are just scaled up Falcs, and OG already are more than 40% higher DPS against cav and artillery (per pop) compared to Falcs. That’s not even factoring in their better mobility and damage efficiency.
And what’s wrong with that? It’s still 100 coin cheaper so that would be a fair trade. If all you do is drop the cav multi then they’re just a Gat clone. Increasing the pop has a minimal effect early game but a huge impact on mitigating a late game death ball.
because for a civ that in 1v1 wood is extremely precious, who’s infantry by design evaporate vs cannons, with a civ that is already vulnerable to falc pressure as is, you just basically make any falc civ demolish ports even more cost effective. hell for 5 pop and 100 less res i get 1 tapped by culvs. sounds pretty shit to me, even moreso when falcs d all their damage and target lock. this has a massive impact population is one of the most important stats in 1v1, its why sents are constant issue and mercs live and die on 1 pop differences
3 Likes
As far as I’m aware Falcs don’t target lock.
Are you seriously comparing it to Sentinels? A Sentinel is 100% more population than a Musk but a Falc is 25% more pop than an OG. The relative population difference is massive. 1v1 is also where it has the least impact because you you probably aren’t going to be running up against the population cap. The only difference is you might need half a house more.
Just remove organ guns. The Portuguese didn’t use those anyway.
First off, HHGs do all the damage at once, vs artillery that is an advantage (killing it over time increases the chance of the target firing back). Organ Guns often get incomplete volleys off against culvs and falcs. Secondly, this seems to contradict what you say after.
You seem to agree that they’d be a cruddy falc. Pop is everything late game and even now Portuguese is middle of the road in treaty. If anything they need a small buff overall. Having said that, Organs are a bit too good at the moment. Just reduce their damage vs artillery and cavalry when Grape Shot comes in (ie net 0 increase to Damage per Minute vs artillery and cavalry. That is a nerf (compared to base stats) in some cases depending on break points (ie a 1hp falc still fires back with full power). In others it won’t matter. Adding +50c with Grape Shot wouldn’t be out of line either. 5 pop organ guns would kinda suck.
2 Likes
i really think you dont understand the port civ in 1v1 if you legit think +1 pop isnt an issue. sentinels are amazing but hamstrung by extra pop was the point
do you not understand how tight port macro is? half a house is 2 more vills to wood. 2 more vills i dont have on food to pump 3 tc vills and food intensive army. hell if i queue 2 organs i cant even queue other units and wait for the house to be built. the entire port tempo is screeched to a halt.
also why the actual hell should a 5 pop unit not get 2 shotted by culvs? you know that mechanic that has existed for years and the entire stat of organ is built around it being 4 pop cause that is the trade off for being vulnerable to culvs as is.
like you clearly dont understand the impact of this. port army is small early on, so having on avg 3-5 less pop army while being slowed down less eco for food and being even more countered by culverin is a major impact. And does it solve the powerspike of 3 organ or late game issue? no cause by age4 idgaf about organs anyways in 1v1 and will just use horse srtillery outside of the age up and 5 organs. Again, the key issue here is the new cards and your proposal would still let me drive by organ but seriously harm the way the civ can operate in the early to mid game. that’s why changes like population are rare and incredibly difficult to balance around. the organ has been 4 pop for over a decade, it works at that value. its not the unit but a new introduced card. focus on the actual issue not change one thing and need 3-4x more fixes
3 Likes
Neither Horse Artillery or OG are anti artillery so this is a niche case. Doing all the damage at once is generally worse since a lot is wasted on overkill. For 4 pop OG, Horse Artillery would need to be compared against 3 OG for it to be apples to apples.
Yes, based on their cost they should only be roughly 80% of a Falc (ie a “cruddy” Falc). But they’re actually better in everything other than health (which is significant to be fair) and slightly worse siege.
This is stupidly convoluted and nothing currently works like that. To cancel it out it would be a multiplier of x0.43478… Just nerf some base stats. Nerfing the cav multi to x0.25 would probably fix them but then it just becomes a reskinned Gat. Adding +50 coin changes nothing if there’s an unkillable death ball. A extra pop cost makes forming the death ball impossible in the first place.
Just queue 1 OG until the house is built. Or train one less Dragoon so you have pop space. There are other ways to manage your pop other than letting things screech to a halt waiting for a house.
You act like OG getting one shotted is my fault personally. They have always been that way, and being one pop more doesn’t change anything. There’s also a card that boosts their health enough to avoid that.
I’ve always been in favor of replacing them with quick firing Bercos (Portuguese swivel guns essentially).
There is mention of organ/ribaulds being used by Ports to defend some of their North African holdings and I believe I did post the excerpt and source on here you’ll have to search on the forum as I can’t be bothered to find it, ha).
However this was super early on in the time frame and fleeting - no mention it anywhere else other than North Africa. To be honest I don’t think the original Devs were aware of it and just stuck an organ gun in for the sake of it anyway.
5 Likes
Yeah it kind of does
Again you are advocating for major changes that affect early game ports to nerf late game scaling. Send the 20%hp? Yeah sure dude in 1v1 its totally efficent to send 20% hp card to a few organs oh wait no its not at all. And at 5 pop why am i wasting my time with this? Ship 3.and forget foundry till age4 unless culvs need. Kill a unit cause in teams its op late game sometimes seems net negative.
This is a bigger issue if you played 1v1 ports you’d understand how crucial pop space is. “Just make a goon” bud if im making organs its cause skirms/archers are killing me or i have to push an inca fort/malta base etc. And i get a weaker army too thanks to your proposal. So now im back to RE style base sitting till age4 cause i got low siege. In 1v1 literally 1 to 2 units makes a major impact for a scaling civ like ports.
I dont see why you insist on pop. Nerf the card that is the issue not the unit. 4 pop base organs are fine. Literally 0 reason to make them 5 pop other than “well my special usa super civ has 1 other civ outperform 1 of its unit cant have that” as if usa units dont outclass.ports enough? Like gats and organs are not the same units in the same civs. I can recongize the issue is case shot so lets nerf caseshot. Like.coffee mill rightful nerfs, it wouldnt kill the unit and still be viable for team artillery spammers. Win win
2 Likes
Thanks for elucidating me on your lack of reading comprehension. I said make 1 less goon to free up pop space instead of idling everything waiting for a house.
Lol, what does USA have to deal with this? I don’t play them.
If you’re really going to cry about it I’d be fine with Grapeshot adding +1 pop and leaving the base at 4. I’d still say nerf the cav multi from x0.5 to x0.4 right from the start.
adjusting population should be a last resort.
3 Likes
Yeah, I’ve seen it. I don’t usually mention it since as you said it isn’t good justification anyway
I guess the devs went with that so Ports wouldn’t only have one UU (and I guess they were too lazy to look up something real?)
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You compared them to gats earlier to justify pop increase which i am pointing out again isnt a cut and dry comparison.
The goon example is part of a 3 unit comp. Vs say china an already tough matchup making my organs die quicker to hand mortars per a pop while reducing goon numbers just makes it worse.
Again, im not oppossed to trimming the boost from caseshot. Im simply stating how a population change makes a major impact in 1v1s. Im moreso against major changes with many impacts to fix a new card thats niche
1 Like
I’d say China is the one civ that can handle massed OG no problem. Hand Mortars are fast and dispersed to deal with them at range and Meteor Hammers make quick work of them close up.
I still think you’re greatly exaggerating this. It would lower your available pop by like 2-4 which is not that big of deal.