To make the Game more competitive Laming should be adjusted/ removed

Well, this is called selective perception.
Just ignoring/make down everything what doesn’t support the own point. And exaggerating everthing which speaks for it.

Dude i told several times that this statistic is to take with caution. I cherry picked the Sheep thing because before you did the same with the Boar. For my argumentation i have basicly not talked at all about the statistic but about the mathematical numbers i gave you.

So can we both just ignore this statistic because of its small samples and instead please talk about sure facts.
I gave you the math, made the math in front of you to show the way it was done and its result.

So can we now please talk about hard facts and debate about if Laming is to strong knowing now that its factual equivalent to lose 1 Boar/ 3Sheeps to having 800 Seconds of Farmer idle time, which is 100 seconds for 8 Farmers etc.

This is a fact and by this not up to cherry pick or debate and by this a good argumentation ground.

I would argue that a mechanic that gives 800 seconds of idle time advantage between Dark and Feudal Age is abusive and op, you probably would argue the opposite.

So please give me your reasonings why it isnt op.
My reasonings are as stated before that its also equal to a 2,5 scout or ~3 Archer numbers advantage right after reaching Feudal Age and by this can snowball very easy out of control with little counterplay and risk, because the lamer gains this huge advantage and doesnt have to risk a lot. If he doesnt miss micro which he shouldnt at some elo he wont lose his scout and only will lose no scouting or gathering time, while the enemy often cant even stop it because a lot of luck factors play into it, making the Game less competitive by that.

It isn’t op because several civs get it basically “for free” without any tradeoffs:
Lith, Mayans, Tatars…

If it was op, these civs would be op and must be hotfixed.

case closed.

1 Like

So removing the entire Civ bonus of a Civ isnt super strong? there is a reason some Civs have around 55% and some around 40% winrates globaly. Civ Bonuses are pretty op a lot of the times.

1 Like

Accordign to T-West video the sheep and the boars spawn at the same distance for you and your opponent, so If you know your how far are your sheep/boars from your TC, you know how far are the opponents sheep/boars from theirs, so you could know where is the opponent TC

As you said, laming must be removed from the game. I support this idea.

1 Like

so how do you remove laming from the game? don’t get me wrong - think laming should be reduced, but removing it would not be easy.

make it so boars don’t follow scouts? i can still lame your boar with a villager if i want and get the last hit with a scout killing it. or just lame with the villager. you lose resources and villager production time with the walking you’ll need to do.
i could use a scout to slow your villager, getting your villager killed. that could be viewed as laming.
i could wall off your resources. that’s viewed as laming.
what about sheep? make all 8 sheep spawn as controlled? what about in single player games? what about nomad?

not so simple to fix laming when so many different things can be viewed as laming and has further reaching implications then one might think.

1 Like

True with sheep laming, but i was referring to boar laming.
I dont know if you know what boar laming looks like, but if you wanna lame your opponents boar and still scout their base, you have to either:

  1. walk over to your opponent
  2. scout their base
  3. hit their boar (the boar will then not automatically walk to your TC, but follow your scout instead)
  4. walk back to your own TC with your scout, at a slower pace, so the boar can catch up, so that you can kill it with your villagers.
  5. walk all the way back to your opponents baso so you can keep seeing what theyre up to.

OR:

  1. walk over to your opponent
  2. hit their boar
  3. walk back to your own TC, while luring the boar
  4. walk back to your opponent
  5. scout your opponent.

Either of those 2 options should take way enough time to push in 2 or 3 deer and still scout your opponent. Because you only have to cross the middle once instead of 3 times.

I gave solutions in the original Post.

I think my Ideas are a good solution with making it impossible that the starting scout can attack Boars and let sheeps spawn much closer.

This way people could still steal sheeps from under the enemy TC by diving in the Tc when the other player miss micros as well as lame the enemy Boar/ Dear with a Vil or a Drush.

My main problem with laming is that its
1 luck based (because sometimes sheeps spawn so far out that you are just unlucky and wont find them causing your enemy to find them first)
and
2 its not enough of an investment for the potential gain. you start with the scout and only lose a bit hp or in the case of sheeps dont lose anything. If you would have to send a Vil forward you would lose resources trough idle time and with a Drush you need to spend res for the Drush. If the lame then succeeds you have still gained a lot from a well done lame, but if you fail you also lose something meaningful by failing.
Mechanics with a huge gain but also an actual risk are normaly fine in Games, but problematic are mechanics who can give a huge gain without any meaningful risk.
The amount of Risk and potential gain needs to balance this mechanic imo.

okay so scouts can’t hit boars. i can still use my scout to slow your villager. letting the boar kill it.
sheep spawn closer to the tc - i can still get you to use your tc to shoot your sheep by bringing my scout in close.
what about nomad maps? how do you stop sheep laming htere?
what about walling resources?

Well with all of these topics its ofc a matter of the perspective of a person.

Iam a 1600 Elo 1v1 Rm player, because of this any player on my and below my elo can lame a Boar without any problem, without losing the scout and without losing much time. Its true that the Scout has to walk a bit slower then he would in a straight line, but its not as much time lose as some might think.

As said before the time lost might not even be enough time to even push one dear, so in many cases the Lamer will be able to push as many dears after he lamed as his enemy could push his own dear in the time after he got lamed. Also even if he loses the time to push one Dear its still a huge advantage. If you enemy doesnt push one Dear then you are ahead 140 Dear Food, the Boar on the other hand is 340 Boar Food more for one and less for another. (as showed in detail before that doesnt mean you have absolut 700 more food, but its easier to talk about by talking about the dear/ boar food) So even if the lamer loses to push 1 Dear, the enemy doesnt get one more like he would if it was stolen, resulting in 700 Boar food advantage - 140 Dear = still ~550 hunter Food difference.
And with scouting the lamer basicly scouts the enemy before he pushs dear and the other scouts after he pushes dear.
The only difference in dear pushing might be that the lamed player might push 1 or more dear and sacrafice some scouting for it, but then the trade of wasnt laming for dear, it was scouting information for dear, a decision that could be done in Games without laming as well, because some player value scouting information more then one more dear and the other way around.

1 Like

As I said before I think its about investment and counterplay.

If you accidental shot your own Sheep you made a misstake as a player, but if you cant find your sheep because it spawned in an unlucky location then even with perfect scouting your enemy find it before you. In one case you do something wrong, in another you just had bad luck.
Losing a Vil to a scout blocking it is also a misstake that can be avoided.
Boar laming on the other hand often cant be avoided, because no player will let his scout stand idle aside his own boar in case the enemy would lame. For good play you have to scout or push dear, and you might see that your boar runs away, but if your dear spawned at the other side of your boar or your scout is scouting then its often impossible to catch the laming scout in time despite you doing perfect play.(ti dile the scout beside the boar to prevent the lame wouldnt be optimal play and by this shouldnt be a “counterplay”, after all we want people to do good plays and improve and encourage doing good plays over bad ones)

Same with moving Vils or Drush forward to lame which is an actual investment on the side of the Lamer and by this a failed Lame has an actual cost.

They are not. It causes certain plays to become easier to do consistently which is a side effect you may not have thought of. If sheeps always spawn closer, you can for example go after the enemy boars that much earlier. But in general, any build order becomes much easier knowing you can get extremely consistent starts.

If both sheep and boars spawn closer, then we’ve successfully removed the need to use the scout for early resource exploration, which seems like a very awkward change to implement after 20 years of gameplay.

So your idea would be viable only if the scout is replaced completely with the horse unit.

Right now laming is a great option to force the opponent to either drush (which is easier to defend against) or significantly delay their first attack (giving you time to wall up)

game host has the the advantage when it comes to click spam

I get your argument on Scouts being able to go crossmap much earlier if Sheeps spawn closer and i totally agree with it.
But thats also why i meant that both of my suggestions would need to be done together. This way Sheeps couldnt be found before your enemy because of luck and the scout couldnt steal a boar which is a to low investment mechanic for its potential gain. Seems I didnt made clear enough that I think both suggestions together are needed.

People could still go crossmap with one Vil supported by a scout to lame the enemy, but as said this would be a bigger investment and by this a potential impactful lose in case of a failed lame making it probably balanced.

About click spam y i agree about the spam thing, but you will be able to see the enemy Scout with your Vil before you attack the Boar normaly, giving you potential counterplay.

This really alters how the game is played in a major way. I think that this kind of change made sense for Arena, but I wouldn’t like it implemented across the board. It would cause too much unneeded side effects.

Basically this way the scout would be no longer needed for resource exploration, and laming as a strategy to delay your opponent would also be gone, while going forward early becomes more consistently easier since you’re likely to find everything pretty quickly… hmm doesn’t sound good to me.

Why not just take the sheep and boar out of the game and have everyone start with the food on the bank?
No lame and everybody is happy

3 Likes

Its equal because you can do it as well. Your on a good day you will pull 324 food from a boar. Your not just keeping your vills idle during that time you should move them to berries, wood, or farms. Its not a flat loss. There is a difference depending on how you split but you don’t just stand idlely by. It will be the difference between what you choose and a flat loss. This may be why you see an impossible wall to overcome.

As mentioned before i made the Math above, and even with perfect play its still a flat lose of 100 Food for you and a flat gain of 100 Food for the enemy, so a 200 Food disadvantage, but only if you do everything perfect, if you dont you lose even more obviously. For the detailed Math look there and maybe some posts below repeating the math but maybe easier to understand:

Yeah it would change the Game maybe a bit. Pushing Dear for example might become more common because of less fear of getting lamed (some people might Idle their Scout at their Boar atm instead of pushing to protect it), but other then that not much of a change if we talk about a normal balanced Game in which no Lame happens.

The Scouting Argument doesnt make much sense imo, because you still need to Scout your map to find your Gold, Stone as well as Woodlines. You could basicly say already that you are just scouting for these things and happen to find your Sheeps while doing that because they are in the Area.
Also as said Laming as a strategy to delay is just not good, because its to strong. To much gain for as explained before no real risk, which makes it op.
If you wanna delay your Enemy you can do a Drush, its a fair way to delay because a Drush needs an investment on your side. Damage with an investment is a good balanced Game mechanic, but Damage without any meaningful investment just breaks the balancing of the Game and makes it non competitive.

Yeah, since we want these sources to be guaranteed, let’s just guarantee them. It’ll also solve players being too bad at scouting to find their resources. We have auto-scout anyway, so if the players don’t find their stuff, it’s actually not their fault anymore, it’s the scouting algorithm’s fault for not finding it.

This is a better, more straightforward solution that the OP’s convoluted mechanical changes to effectively reach the same result.

Just have them all in a pen with a sign written in bright blue paint that says “My foodstuffs” and your opponent will get the “Enemy foodstuffs” pen. All better, laming is solved, bad map generation doesn’t matter for food anymore. Thread can be closed, the answer is found. Hop to it, Devs.

2 Likes