Treaty balance patch: 22 civs overhaul, Meiji Japan + 3 Rev civs redesign

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Since the Devs have finally remembered there’s a game called AOE III DE after 8 months of silence, I think it’s the perfect time to introduce my thoughts on how to make balance patch. Note that this patch is mainly focused on NR 40 treaty games. The changes are made to have as little impact on SUP games as possible, although interventions in SUP games are unavoidable.

GENERAL CHANGES

  • Large number of Hotkeys fixes - they are plenty of units who have broken hotkeys or don’t have any at all: Multiple Rifleman, Russian Fort infantry, Russian Tatar Archer, Multiple Royal Dragoons, Mexican Eagle/Jaguar warrior, Indian Tigers…

  • Infinite Industrial Native Warrior shipments: The amont of the troops delivered by the shipments is adjusted so it meets the value of 1700g (e.g. 10 rattan shields = 1100g → 15 rattan shields = 1650g)

  • Merc Native Warriors The build limit of the Native Warriors delivered by Industrial Infinite Native Shipments is set to 1.5x of its delivery count (few units on field no longer prevents the card from being sent)

EUROPEAN CIVS

PORTUGUESE

  • 15 Tupi Allies (IV): Amount increased 15 → 17

  • Bandeirantes (II): Moved to Age IV and delivers 2 Explorers (from 1).

  • Ordenanca (Church tech): Rifleman and Pikeman traning time reduction adjusted -30% → -20%

  • Ordinance Rifleman: Cost set from 35f 35w → 40f 40w

  • Order of Aviz (IV): Also enables Carbine Attack Tactic action for Dragoons, makes them inflicting 10% more damage to enemies. Dragoons will prefer using melee attack when facing a close enemy.
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Ordenance troops are one of the worst units in terms of design DE introduced. It completely killed the natural spirit of Port - the good use of range. Port has strong ranged units, but the problem is that skirms goons and arts cant fight alone without frontline units. Port cav and musk and too weak to ever be mentioned, so the explorer spam comes to mind. This is what makes Port an unique civ and not a crube imitation of Russia.

DUTCH

  • Dutch States Army (III): No longer reduces tranining time of Mercenary units, no longer increases the cost of Dutch Infantry and Cavalry

  • The Viceroy (Age IV Politician): Also adds 5 settler Build Limit.

Another example of unit insta-spamming. This feature should only belong to Russia. The changes made to Dutch States Army indicates that Dutch can have a mixture of Mercenary units and standard Dutch army. So far im not concerned about its strength, because Mercenary units are simply cost inefficient.

RUSSIANS

  • Sevastopol (II): No longer reduces the build time of walls. Block House build limit +2

  • [NEW] Shlisselburg Fortress (Fort tech): Enables Fort Aura: Infantry base damage +10% near Fort.
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Reducing wall spamming that often leads to OOS while improving the gaming experience. Constructing Forts now makes more sense as it not only distracts enemy, but also gives some additional benefits.

ITALIANS

  • Carabinieri (Church Tech): Carbine Cavalry replaces Dragoons in Stable.

  • Papal Arsenal (IV): Papal units shipment research points -33% → -70%.

  • TEAM Cavalry Damage (II): Increases ALL Cavalry Damage instead of increasing Heavy and Light Cavalry Damage.

  • Papacy (Church tech): No longer increases Basilica build time. Lowers Architect pop cost by 1 instead.

  • Imperial Bersaglieri (V): Reduces cost by 5 gold.

  • Papal Bombard: Pop cost 8 → 7.

Italy lacks of frontline units same as Port. Most of its cards and tech give damage. Should the squishyness and high damage be part of Italy, then they should be supported by some stronger frontline units. -70% research time ensures that most Papal units arrive within 10 sec (they share the same queue with normal shipments though). Italy is designed as an offensive civ, so these buffs should help Italy actually being so.

MALTESE

  • Squires (III): Maltese military buildings’ training and research work rate increased 80% → 130%, Artillery Foundry and Fort research work rate reduced by 50%

  • Extensive Forfitication (II): Renamed to TEAM Extensive Fortification, now increses the Build Limit of Outpost, Block House, Castle and War Hut. For Malta: Outpost Build Limit +5, Fortifications’ HP +25%.

  • Rockets (IV): No longer increases Sentinels’ stats, Instead, reduces Sentinels’ pop cost to 1 while increasing its tranining cost by 40%.

  • [NEW] Christian Coalition (IV): Grants Master an ability to place Inspiring Flag that increases MAX Damage and MAX HP of all allied military units within range by 5% and all allied military buildings within range by 10%.

  • Fixed Gun: Pop cost 6 → 5
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    Max stats with all buffs and 23 cards sent. The cost is 86f 56g.

Malta is a really problematic civ. It not only is weak af, it is also bound to Forts and cant fight elsewhere. Work rate of all military buildings is increased while Fort and Artillery Foundry remain unchanged. This should allow Malta to split army in the humblest way. A team card is also what Malta needs, so there it is. Sentinels should now act weak and be cost inefficient in early game (when the treaty ends), gradually growing into a decent unit as the cards are sent. Hopefully its cost is not broken.

GERMANS

Prince Electors (I): Also increases Native Embassy Build Limit by 1.

Tilly’s Discipline (Church Tech): Now only influences Doppelsoldner, extra movement speed and Infantry cost replaced by extra Doppelsoldner movement speed and cost

TEAM Cavalry Damage (II): Increases ALL Cavalry Damage instead of increasing Heavy and Light Cavalry damage

Having the native units queueing in Native Embassy is annoying. Hopefully the additional Native Embassy relieves that. The Doppsoldner build could be an option now. Making the team card affect all Cavalry is due to that some units (Rifle Rider for example) holds both Heavy Cav and Light Cav tag.

FRENCH
10 Huron Allies (IV): Now delivers 10 → 11 Huron Mantlets

Ancien Regime (I): Also increases Native Embassy Build Limit by 1

BRITISH
13 Cherokee allies (IV): Delivers 13 → 14 Cherokee Riflemen.

4 Hannover allies (III): Card removed.

Imperial Redcoats(V): Also enables Volley Fire Ability for Musketeers.

[NEW] Volley Fire:

When fully charged, the next attack will inspire surrounding allied Infantry, slightly increasing their movement speed and attack speed for a short period of time. Can be stacked.

The Black Duke(Age V Politician): Delivers 13 Totenkopf Hussars instead of 6 Drummers.

The ability is intended to replace the Drummers, so the buff can only be obtained by making musketeers to prevent camping with Rangers.

SWEDES

  • Nothing - Balanced civ

SPANISH

  • Nothing - Balanced civ

OTTOMANS

  • Nothing - lacks of useful team card, but nothing comes to mind

ASIAN CIVS

JAPAN

  • Genbukan Doujo (III) : Moved to Age IV.

  • Renpeikan Doujo (III) : Moved to Age IV.

  • Sword Saint (III): Moved to Age IV

  • Bloody Harvest (III): Also increases Naginata attack range by 1

Samurais have many military cards, but none of them can be taken. Thats why the Age III Card slots are released, so the Samurai build is actually available.

CHINESE

  • Hire 10 Rattan Shields (IV) : Now Delivers 10 → 15 Rattan Shields.

  • Provincial Government (Village): also increases the herdable gathering limit by 5

  • Flame Throwers : Removed Infantry and Ranged Infantry tag.

China now can finally fatten all of its Goats and Buffalos at the same time. Honestly the biggest dissapointment about China is that its units are too archaic. The non-archaic ones are either too expensive (double cav) or are simply weak. So the only option left is spamming the Mongolian army + Standard army. I cant find a way how to enrich China troops without impacting SUP mode.

INDIANS

  • 2 Mysorean Rockets (IV) : Costs 1000f → 500f

  • Mughal Elephant Armors (IV) : The armors also influences Native War Elephant.

  • Pet Tigers : Cost set to 110f (from 120f). (Upon reaching Industrial Age, Tiger’s training time is reduced by 50%)

  • Pet White Tigers : Cost set to 115f (from 125f).

  • Mansabdar Units: Now can be delivered as shipment in Charminar Gate (like Papal units, enabled for Age V Charminar Gate only).

Imagine Brit can have 2 free Rockets…
India’s biggest weakpoint is that it has no useful Cavalry units. War Elephants train too slow and cost too many pops and most of time are being focused heavily. The Tigers could potencially do the Cav job. Now the Mansabdar units dont have to walk across the map just to die again.

WARCHIEFS

LAKOTA

  • 13 Bisons (IV) : Delivers 13 → 10 Bisons
    Optimized the pathing logic for settlers: They are less likely to cluster around a single bison, thus improving gathering rate

Lakota’s eco is still based on how laggy the room is. But now requires less vill micro during fight.

AZTECS

  • Chests of 1300 coin (IV): Renamed to TEAM: Aztec Treasure . Now arrives in 60s → 40s, delivers 1 Aztec Treasure Chest (100g) for your team, Aztecs get extra 1000g.
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Snowballing the enemy benefits more.

INCA

  • 15 Tupi Allies (IV) : Delivers 15 → 17 Blackwood Archers.

  • Team Inca Bridges (II) : Card Removed.

  • Road Building (III) : Reworked as TEAM Road Building . Now influences the whole team, increase 5% speed of Land Military (from 10%), Incan Land Military gain extra 5% speed.

  • Chachapoya Support (IV): Now adds 0.2 Siege Armor to Huaraca (from 0.1).

  • Legendary Chimu Runner (V) : Reduces cost by 5 food.

  • Legendary Plumed Spearmen (V ): Reduces cost by 5 wood.

Comprehensive buffs for Inca.

Haudenosaunee

  • Siege Construction ( III ) : No longer reduces the pop cost of Rams and Mantlets

  • 1500 Res Crates (IV): Amount of resources reduced to 1200

Iro deserves more nerfs than this. I wouldnt be surprised if Mantlets got removed completely.

MEXICO AND USA

MEXICO

  • Tlaxcala Alliance ( Age II Federal ) : Increases Native Embassy Build Limit by 1, Conquistador pop cost set to 2

  • Aztec Pueblos ( Age IV Federal ) : Increases Native Embassy Build Limit by 1, Eagle Warrior and Jaguar Warrior pop cost set to 1

  • Vigilantes (RG): No longer reduces the cost of Salteador by 5g

Apart from eco, the most broken thing on Mexico is Chinaco. Statwise they dont even pull attention. They are OP due to their mechanics. While they almost neglect the counter system, every newly trained Chinaco has fully charged ability, and this easily results in snowballing. Im afraid that any nerfs on Chinaco mechanics could just delete it.
Since Bourbon and Prince elector units cost pop count, it should also apply on Mexico

USA

  • Tammany Festival ( Age II Federal ) : Increases Native Embassy Build Limit by 1, Cree Tracker pop cost set to 1

AFRICAN CIVS

ETHIOPIA

  • Ignatian Spirituality (IV) : Renamed to TEAM: Ignatian Spirituality :Affects the whole team.

Ethiopia definitely needs nerfs, but I havent come up with any ideas, nor do I know how to buff Hausa.

HAUSA

Revolutionary Civs

Napoleonic France, Canada, Finland, Meiji Japan (WIP). I have made too many changes to these civs, so I will just take some screenshots

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2 Likes
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Except for what’s proposed for Papal Arsenal, everything seems pretty good to me, although I would add one change for Advanced Politicians.

Advanced Politicians: Now also guarantees 2 shipments for the revolutions.

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As you mention, any changes to the game for treaty needs to take into account any affects in supremacy as well, particularly as that accounts for the large majority of matches played. Most of these proposed changes are not impactful to supremacy or would be beneficial, but anything that encouraged an FI should be avoided. My thoughts on what I think of those that would be adverse in supremacy:

Ports already have one of the strongest skirm-goon-cannon combos in the game. Your changed to ordinance units is needed, but this incentives a FI play into supergoon. Not kosher

The Dutch already can hit 60 vil 9 banks. An easy 5% bonus to their eco is not wise.

This is effectively identical to a Swede ability and would result in heavy turtle play from Russians. Also, base damage should never be modified. In general, adding new mechanics when there is an incoming DLC should be avoided.

Too strong. 50% maybe, but Papal shipments are strong and cheap. Another thing that woul overly incentivize FI play.

These are already stupendous skirms. Do not buff them.

No. The whole point of sentinels is the 2 pop is balanced out by the 2% hp boost per shipment. If it’s reduced to 1 pop, this unit becomes a monster in long games.

This is theft of the unique flag mechanic from the federal civs. It belongs there, not with Malta.

Too strong. The fixed gun is fairly balanced currently.

No. This effect has been in effect for Germans since 2005. It is core to the Germans play. Leave it alone. Only affecting dopps makes it a complete waste of a church tech.

This is an Age 3 card that should have no bearing in treaty. Leave it be. Don’t remove cards in general.

No. Brits musks are already the strongest in the game, and this works against the intended debuff from thin red line.

Just as a note, in Supremacy, Otto team cards are extremely strong. They need heavy nerfs to account for their extreme over performance in supremacy

No. They are purpose built as siege troopers. Removing these tags would remove all counters.

Sowars are decent cav, and zamburaks are strong due to being an Age 2 goon. Any changes to Indians can play should be done with great care.

Again, don’t remove cards. You’re rolling 2 cards into 1. This would result in slightly lower speeds for Inca infantry, but with the benefit of not having to choose.

Nononono. These guys are already a menace.

No need for these. Plus, since they aren’t royal guard units, they should get no special bonus. If the cost should change, it should be comprehensive, either all civs get a similar bonus or the base cost for these units changes. The base cost change would be too strong, and the change for all civs opens a can of worms, and only doing it for certain civs is a distaster waiting to happen.

Absolutely not. Do not try to remove units from the roster.

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If you know, you know.

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Was wondering why Haiti, Hungary, Romania and Barbary states given revolutionary buffs? Anyway. I like the changes to Canada. Would be cool if a bit more revolts have Imperial unit options(Not too many) of course.

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Oh what a surprise, aztecs getting nerfed again…

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I think it is necessary to reduce the cost of the Feathered Spearman and the Chimu people no matter what. Due to the increase in the cost of these two units in the last update, the Inca people are already quite weak in both regular battles and treaty modes, and their winning rate is worrying. In the 1v1 mode of general confrontation, the Inca people have a winning rate of less than 50% in all segments of the ladder. In the standard 40 minute treaty mode, they are also a weak civilization at the same level as the civilization with problems at the bottom of the Malta treaty. In the last update, these two units increased costs, and Inca housing construction weakened production capacity. The new update is completely necessary to rectify these weakened civilizations

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I like this type of discussion, right now there are some blind spots with balance such as the late game. Just because the top players don’t play passed 15mins does not mean that the average player wont end up in age IV or V occasionally. For those occasion the game should be balanced too.

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You are right, the extra 10% damage is too much, but the melee part is actually useful in treaty and does no harm to SUP, as most melee cav have no melee armor, this help Port facing them.

Base damage cant be modified so far as I know. I might not have made it clear. The +10% is based on base damage, and not on MAX damage. Seems that this option does more harm in SUP. than it gives benefits to treaty.

Right now the Papal units nearly dont exist in treaty just because they demand 21 secs to be shipped while occupying the shipment queue. Somehow they have to arrive within 12 sec to be considered for use. If not by the Papal Arsenal, then simply by imperial shadow - as of now it gives a -20% to FAKECARDS. Since Italy is the only civ that has Fakecards shipments, increasing the value to -50% does no harm to any other civs or to SUP (assuming that hitting imperial age isnt that common). 60 second of fakecard shipments are then reduced this way: 60 x 0.67 x 0.67 x 0.5 = 13.46s

Thats why I put this effect into Imperial upgrade to avoid interfering with SUP games. In treaty Bersaglieri are simply cost inefficient.

Well if you do simple calculations u will see that their MAX stats are just worth 1.5 pop after sending all shipments and Rockects included. They cost 145 value, they have the stats worth of 1.5 pop, but cost 2 population count. In SUP this might not seem to be a problem since you rarely hit 200 pop cap. But in treaty they are just toooooooo weak, and when both side has equal 100 pop military units, Malta just gets stomped naturally.

After all techs and cards sent, Maltese units are still weaker than other european units except for crowssbow and pike. A comprehensive buff is needed, and Flag seems to be a good option. Right now Malta has 0 team interaction in treaty, the effect that Flag also inspires ally units could be useful when it comes to team treaty games.

Thats why the ability is only available to imperial redcoats, so it never appers in SUP games. In fact the debuff form thin red line are already eliminated by the Age V option of 6 drummers in treaty, so the debuff is just a SUP thing. I assume that drummers rarely appear in SUP games, so the debuff from thin red line still remains relevant. The reason why I remove Drummers from decks is to prevent double stacking the buffs. I dont think that the 4 Drummers are picked in SUP games, so this shouldnt be a problem. Correct me if im wrong.

Sure, cards that gives instant benefits - crates, units etc. are useful in SUP games, but Otto has no team card that gives benefits in long terms. The Food to Wood trade used to be a good team card, but as of now every treaty map has enough amount of wood, so team food to wood trading is not happening anymore.

If you notice, the Rams are siege troops who dont have an Infantry tag. By removing the infantry tag from Flamethrowers only affects anti infantry Artilleries (which is really importat in treaty, since most damage comes from Art). Cavalry units still counter the Flamethrowers.

Sure, I stated above in the context of treaty. In SUP it might be completely different.

Well there are plenty of cards that has little meaning to gaming, but just stand there due to their unique name/description. Now I would like to know, is there a scenario in SUP where you would want to send both speed cards or send the Inca Bridge early in Age II?

Their Max attack range is 30 if I remember correctly. Thats just a bit more than most anti infantry Arts. Industrial Arts like Heavy cannon or Great Bombards that have 28 range dont really fear these units (Huaracas have long pre-attack animation). Afterall Huaracas are design to counter Arts. If they get smashed when approaching Arts, there is just no reason building them. Does the 0.1 siege armor have that much impact on SUP?

Plumbed spearman: 170HP, 13 hand attack, 100f 25w
Quechua Huaminca (Andes native unit): 170 HP, 15 Hand attack, 100f 20w
The Plumbed spearman is simply weaker and cost more… I dont know how strong or weak Inca in SUP is. But in Treaty Inca acts like an industrial civ that runs out of eco quickly due to both low eco and its unit cost inefficiency. I agree that the base cost could be tweaked instead of applying it on Imperial upgrades - i have decided to do it just to avoid SUP intervention, since I have no idea whether the unit is cost efficient or no in SUP. Theres no comprehensive cost tweaking needed, just some units need.

This is meant to be a joke lol.

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I dont consider it a nerf. The team 1100 now arrives in 40 secs. In treaty Azzy farms too many XP that the 60s of shipment arrival is actually limiting how many crates Azzy sends.

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There are a lot of changes here, and I don’t really have time to cover most of it, but as a Port main I’ll address this.

In treaty, Dragoons see less use. The speed isn’t worth as much and they are 2 pop which isn’t great. I’m not convinced a 10% damage boost (only about +2.2 damage) is an issue. It might be enough to make them as good as Portuguese Musketeers, but probably doesn’t radically change things (IN TREATY).

Where it would certainly be an issue would be in Sup and Team.

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Yeah, that was another unneeded nerf to aztecs.

Everyone got faster shipments in imperial age but aztecs, that got slower one in industrial age -_-

Any general change turns into an aztec nerf

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Unpopular Opinion, Treaty, Supremacy, and every other game mode should be balanced separately. :unamused:

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Ce n’est pas impopulaire, c’est même cohérent je trouve. :wink:

Mais après ça implique de mieux connaitre au moins son mode préféré.

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Here’s a thought, maybe Azzy is and always has been a dumpster fire of overtuned units and when untested changes are introduced it’s often OP for them. Also, the nerfs haven’t always been fully thought out or tested and not had the intended effect of actually nerfing Azzy. They’ve also had some major buffs like JPK promotions and spin to win.

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Stealth units nerf was awfull, dont tell me about WC changes after nature friendship removal or BBs dont working if housed at launchment

A civ cant be OP when you can counter all their roster with just 2 units.

Meanwhile everyone can play with just 1 or 2 units (Sweden/Port/Japan/Mexico/Brits…) while aztecs have to train all of them mandatoryly, suppousely a single unit is OP (ERK wasnt)

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I’m admittedelly confused by everything in this post.

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Oh god no… Terrible just Terrible changes. Not only do some of these effect normal games but also effect comp stomps.

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but unify the two dojos into a single card please

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that could be too strong, the two doujos are comparable with two factories