Treaty Question

I played Portugal versus Mexico on Deccan and lost. He massed skirms, constantly sent nats, spammed those lancer units once in a while, had 3-4 culverins usually, and flanked with mortars.

I had the same nats as he did, went mass musk, flanking hussar, ~4 horse cannons with 1-2 culverins, 2 explorers and dog, but found myself without enough pop to flank with mortars cause I felt like I was overwhelmed. I thought that by going musk/hussar/horse cannon, I could be more eco-efficient, trying to get more value from my horse cannons if I protected them. Then my meatshields would be a trickle of flanking hussars and constants natives.

However, in doing this, I found myself drained of wood, so I stopped having natives for meatshields and I couldn’t pump out artillery as efficiently. We were both dropping score fighting each other, but I was draining slightly faster than him. And then when I ran out of wood, he was able to push hard with nats and artillery, and I felt like it was really difficult to hold the line (too many natives running around with mass skirms shooting freely).

I think a lot of things went wrong (probably should’ve chopped more wood, maybe I should’ve gone with a cass/goon comp, etc.) but my real question is,

How do players keep up a steady flow of meatshield units without draining?
If planning to use natives, how much wood do you usually try to stockpile before 40min? and at 60?

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Pues yo pongo las 2 fabricas bombeando madera, y no soy de gastar mucha madera en otras cosas, soy mas de hacer infanterĂ­a que caballerĂ­a ya que puedes abrumar mas en numero.

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The mexicans can gather wood from haciendas, so they dont drain while they have a wood to coin trade x1.5 (in my opinion too much).

Also they can train more army cause their reduced villagers limit. Like any civ with less vills they overperform for that reason

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2 factories on wood only produce about 880W per minute. If we’re both constantly spamming natives (Deccan War Elephants cost 200F and 75W each, and you can make 8 I think), that’s already 600W right there. You can even make Tiger Claws on that map, which drains even more wood since the skirm masses will pick them off. Not even considering making artillery with a few culverins or horse artillery here and there. So it’s just not efficient for wood. Someone will lose wood and there goes your meatshield.

Since Portugal is food heavy, I do put a ratio of roughly 50 villagers on food, 10 wood, 40 gold and try to do the usual thing by keeping a mass of infantry alive.

This makes sense. I was wondering why although we both had similar skirm masses, he was sending a lot of cav like it was nothing. I always felt outpopped.

I should probably try to villager delete and push hard before draining then.

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As you read the above replies I am amazed that there is such close balance in the civs. I know there are problems but really it’s a miracle the this game isn’t totally bannanas. So many paths all pretty much ending the same place

I don’t think civ balance is amazing close, but I think within treaty mode, the balance between the civs overall would be like a 7. I’d say most civs can give each other some sort of fight, but some matchups are just truly difficult by design.

The reason why I wouldn’t give even an 8/10 is because some civs just have it too well (economically and militarily) and some civs just don’t.

There usually should be some balance like if you have a very strong military with Lakota (able to get hp 2-3k HP units with teepees), there’s also a glaring weakness that comes with it like a bad economy. Or Spain with Unction: it’s super tough fighting heads up with them, but they’re not great dealing with splits, don’t get HP boosts on their units, and their eco is alright.

Compared to a civilization like France, France has it all:
80 CDBs that work at the rate of 99 settlers, 2 factories, fur trade, most eco cards, and on top of that, a well-rounded with great heavy cav, strong skirms, good musks, stronger artillery, stronger nats, 20 extra pop space, etc.

Not all is hopeless, but definitely some civs feel destined to steamroll. I never got how 100 military pop civs compete with 120-125 pop civs with stronger units, especially if economies are about in equal in strength. Hard to drain them if you’re on the same skill level with similar economies.

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I´m a supporter of the vill delete and its benefits, but when going native (wich i never do because i dont like it) i would think it twice before vill deleting cause your army is already bigger and you need more eco than usual, i´m not saying you shouldn´t do it, try it, although even when i haven´t done the calculations and it depends on what native etc. i don´t think is the best option.

Totally agree here, i honestly don´t think all civs should be equally powerful in treaty, i do think there should be civs stronger than others, for example, i agree that french would be one of the strongest, but it´s true that there are some civs that honestly don´t yet compete with others, or that you have to do like wonders and hard things to keep up, but anyway, i think we can maybe talk a little further in this, just to not make this comment too long…

Yeah, good point. A villager delete with natives is a sure way to drain. But it’s tough to compete against a civ already having a lower settler limit who’s also throwing natives, lol.

I agree with you too. If things were too perfectly balanced, there wouldn’t be anything that made civs stand out. But if we wanted to discuss some sort of “standard” for civ balance, I believe every civ should have unit counters for everything that vary in effectiveness, but it is still viable nevertheless. If they lose more than 70% of their matchups due to this weakness, it’s probably too badly designed.

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As portugal isn’t caçador and dragoons a better composition?

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Yeah, it’s better cassador-goon combo, but combining that with +Musketeer is also very good, so in my opinion musketeers should be part of the composition, but cassador is better than the Musketeer, i mean, depends on what you’re using too, but cassador should almost never miss in a portuguese army, is way too good, meaning that the musk is less important and more okay if it’s missing…

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If you go pure cass/goon, you can be very vulnerable to a swarm of heavy cav.

The goons will eventually take care of the heavy cav in due time, but it takes some time. In that time though, your whole army of cassadors and goons will be auto-firing at the heavy cav, since they are the closest units to shoot at. The enemy’s skirms will remain intact and continue shooting at your skirms, so you’re at a disadvantage.
Also, if you make too many goons, they take 2 pop, so you lose DPS from your entire army since 2 skirms can contribute more damage than 1 goon. (Plus, skirms eat goons, so that’s not good).

I’m not sure if mixing musks makes it more effective. The reason why is because while your musks are meleeing the heavy cav, the mass of enemy skirms will fire at your musketeers and kill them fast.

To me, I think the answer is countering huss/skirm is just with your own heavy cav. And natives for meatshields.

In my Portugal versus Mexico, I felt outmassed 115 to 100, so I used heavy artillery to increase DPS. And instead of cass, I chose musk to defend the artillery. I was thinking if hussars are tanking, then my musks should be alright from skirm fire and my artillery will do a lot of DPS against the mass skirms. I think the real problem was just not having wood to sustain natives though

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That can only be done by revolution, and it’s not that good for treaty games.

I think that player had both 2 factories into wood.

Well, just put both factories into wood + 10 villagers, and should be fine.