Turks buff: Free Chemistry from Dark/Feudal Age

Free Chemistry in Dark Age will give their TCs (towers and castles in fortress maps also) +1 attack, which can help in douching or defending against a douche. The downside is they need 6 villagers to produce 5 arrows.

Free Chemistry in Feudal and Castle Age can help in Archer rush into Crossbowmen, Cavalry Archer rushes (they will match the Camel Archer for having the most damage in Castle Age as a Cavalry Archer unit) and also Tower rushes. It won’t unlock any gunpowder units or Technologies (except the Janissaries of course), it just means +1 attack (no range boost unlike Britons hence balanced, also a slight projectile visual change).


a. Fully upgraded feudal age Skirmishers will deal 2 damage to loomed villagers, unlike others dealing 1 (situationally helpful, since Turks won’t go fot Skirmishers maybe, also balances missing Elite Skirmisher in Castle Age maybe).

b. Watch Towers with Bodkin Arrow deal 2 damage to Mangonels as opposed to others dealing 1. Maybe a bit defensive edge, but not huge.


It is not a terrible proposal, but Janissary + Mangonel (Chemistry affects Siege) pushes are already very strong as it is.
Jans do not benefit from Chemistry, at all.

Still, I think we could give it a chance.


turks are a meme? I think not.

There are no bonuses like: Tech X is free but already in Age Y, either its free and they have the tech and get the bonus in the intended age, or your give them general bonus like all bolts have +1 (starting in Age Y) and they dont have chemistry, but then they dont have access to gunpowder which ofc cant be intended.

So what you want is - Free Chemistry and on top - All bolts have +1 atk starting in Age Y
Anyhow this bonus feels like super unsmooth

PS: Turks are fine, such a late-game affecting buff would make their late game even stronger

It could work, but I would make give it from the castle age fo a number of reasons:

  • the downside that you mentioned in the dark age is pretty big, and that would happen also in feudal for towers, meaning that turks would be extra vulnerable to Trush strategies.
  • in feudal +1 on their archers isn’t a bad bonus, but turks aren’t really a foot archer civ, so they wouldn’t really make use of it, while other civs can use similar bonus.
  • they could really use it in castle for their sipahi CA, and here when they would really shine, so I wouldn’t overbuff their early ages.

However, I really like the idea, but again, maybe from castle age is enaugh.


Besides that being historically so stupid that I can’t imagine even aoe featuring that, you’d just lay the grounds for another archer civ, then. It doesn’t really matter for tcs and I don’t think it would incentivize cav archers too much. I guess players would just go crazy feudal archers with that and imo we already have enough archer civs.

I agree with you, but to anticipate it only in castle age could work, and it doesn’t seem broken.

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Just because there is no such bonus at the moment doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be such a bonus. Also remember that Cumans get the Capped Ram technology an age earlier; that’s pretty similar.

How about not assuming, what SauravT might want, and just reading, what he posted? He never said anything like that! The discussions on this forum would be so much smoother and more enjoyable, if we all would just stop implying things, that have never been said by anyone…

Back to topic: The idea is very interesting as it would mainly buff the very bad turkish skirms and their towers (vs. mangonels), so it would increase the chance of Turks to survive until they have their strong late game army set up. Chemistry also affects some siege weapons, but I think it is only +1 atk for them as well, which doesn’t change very much. Or is there any hidden bonus I am not aware of?
To prevent overpowered archers, it could be adequate to give them free chemistry only in castle age. +1 atk would make archers strong enough to kill everything in Feudal age (including skirms).

Is it really that stupid? Were flaming arrows only invented in late medieval ages? Also, AoE is featuring fire galleys in Feudal Age, which require much more chemical knowledge…


Because thats the implication. What else does he want of Free Chemistry in Dark Age, feudal age Handcannons ? That will never be written as such as a tech. Whats the need of calling it Free Chemistry but in Dark Age, when its only about the attack bonus. How will you display that in the techtree ? that a technology you cannot research is actually researched. You are in dark age and then you have one green tile with chemistry. Not everything that is not done before, means that it should be done and everybody else did just overlook that option. We also can give Turks the options to train Handcannons in Feudal without needing chemistry, its not done before and also buffs them and serves their identity, and I am sure that that is not wanted (but maybe I imply too much here…)

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How does this affect late game? Basically Turks have the same Imperial Age as original.

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+1 attack for Mangonels is kinda negligible. We are talking about a 2.5% increase. It will have a noticable effect on Archery Range units (especially Skirmishers) and Scorpions, which isn’t bad.


Well they already have a gold boost. Maybe they can try an archer rush in Feudal Age, into Crossbowmen. And when the time comes, transition into Cavalry Archers (since Turks don’t have Arbalesters). It will make their mid game smooth.

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Yeah but they have a powerful late game, it’s just balanced that their feudal age it’s standard.

I like the idea of free chemistry already in castle age to further improve their CA, but we don’t need another archer rush civ, especially not one without arbalest.

Maybe the free chemistry can be locked behind building the first university (like the old magyars bonus) so that there is no problem that it’s used before castle or abused in super early castle.

Still, it could be upon hitting castle too, I don’t think it would be broken.

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I meant there chemistry + the dark age bonus of all bolts have +1 atk spefically, sorry for confusion. It was not what you were talking about but is for me the only possible inclusion of your idea without breaking the game designwise.

Hand Cannons, Cannon Galleon, Bombard Towers and Bombard Cannons have 2 requirements: Chemistry and Imperial Age. So free Chemistry from Dark Age doesn’t mean gunpowder units from Dark Age.


I know that but still techs leaving their general age is making this game too complex.

I honestly have no idea, what we are talking about, here. You offer a buff to the Turks ,that you don’t think is wanted and would obviously be very unbalanced. So it has to be some kind of joking that I don’t get… Or did you try to make an argument ad absurdum? No, that cannot be the case, as it would only make sense, if anybody said something like “Everything, that isn’t in the game, should be in the game.” That would be the only thing, you would refute. But nobody said anything like that… I am also sure, you didn’t imply that someone might have this opinion, as I just had asked to not do such groundless implying, so that would be very rude…
I am really sorry for not understanding you, please explain to me, what you mean!

I am very glad that you found such a simple and elegant solution to this problem!


Every Turk buff is welcome from my side, imo they are the worst civ in the reference 1v1 arabia (maybe paired with Italians).

While for Italians tons of people ask for a buff, Turks seem to be abandoned. Maybe just because Italians are worse, but I think it is also a problem of lack of love for this civ.

Anticipating chemistry may work, but imo it does not fix the two main turk problems: they are weak vs archers and they cannot play without gold.

Imo a fix would be to get e-skyrm (but people do not like this). Other options may include

  • an alternative access to gold (like TCs generate a small gold trickle whose total is saturated to a safe level like 2 relics maximum)
  • the access to a different trash unit. Someone pushes for trash scorpions, but I really like the idea of moving genitours to Turks (despite the absolute need to rename the unit since genitours were not Turks).

I like this idea! I agree that their main weakness is against archers, but I think skirms in feudal, and scorps/mangos in castle with chemistry would likely be able to defend the turk players boom, so they have the ability to get to their late game options. This would also give them more incentive to use CA in castle which diversifies their play a bit more.

Maybe have the chemistry effect in feudal though? Not sure turkish douches is what we really want lol. In all it would fit with the gunpowder civ motif while giving the civ more dimensions, and a nice buff in 1v1 Arabia.

Turks have some flaws, but they aren’t that bad, I mean, they have the best HCA paired with magyars (a bit better in my opinion since their UT came earlier in castle) paired with the best BBC and gunpowder, decent stables and SW, so they don’t lack options.

That’s not a problem, not all civs have to be good on super late trash game.
Celts for example are a powerful late game civ, and have terribile trash.

Their faster gold mining bonus isn’t powerful in the early ages, but it allow them to have an incredible power spike in castle and imp.

That’s their real main weakness, but onestly all civs are weak to other civs, still the turks are particularly weak.

But again, just some minor buffs could be enough, like allow sipahi to affect the scout-line.

I also like this idea, though, I would anticipate chemistry only to castle, that way their archers would be improved a little.

Especially their castle age CA, that would have +20HP, +1atk (over other CA in castle age) and they would be helped by their gold bonus.