that gives them 28% to 36% better market rates in very late game (14-18 are worst trade rates iirc)
That’s quite a change which i think would be very hard to play test before implementing…
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And what exactly is that? No one has better than spears? Or better than skirms. Or do you classify castle age as the early game? Or do you mean their lack of eco bon bon?
A number of civs have no bon bon to open maps in the early game…
Either way i agree they need some kind of early game buff. But archer resistant scouts certainly wouldn’t hurt…
Turks were famous for their sipahi cavalry long before their janissarys, so a cavalry related bonus makes sense.
However, I agree that more armor isn’t the right choice, but more HP is simply to implement and can give them the small buff they need.
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i don’t think turks need a buff, any bad win rates are probably because someone was in it for the long haul, if you play turks, horde your gold then do an all out siege, if the opponent survives then you don’t have a chance, but turks are powerful while in that state
Turks in late game trash war sell 100f for 17g if I remember correctly (I may be wrong, sorry if I am). If you give them +4g they get 21, 22 if +5.
4/17 = 23.5%, 5/17= 29%. Yes, it is a lot.
Overall:
- the bonus is much weaker in the other stages of the game since the market price is much better. Even useless potentially, since you often use the market to buy
- the bonus is clearly strong in a trash war, and quite decent in general when selling
Overall it seems to me that it would mainly act exactly when Turks are by far the worst civ in the game (trash war and when they have no gold access).
Are there other scenarios where the bonus may be powerful? In a monk rush? But turks already have the best miners, they should use them. Not in a fast imp since there you wanna buy food, right?
I agree that testing is difficult, so I am trying to figure out the possibilities…
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True for their own rates but i meant in comparison to other civs. I should’ve clarified why i mentioned 14.
Worst case +5g is 36% more than civs without guilds. Totalling 58% more gold than guildless civs…
Obviously most games don’t reach that stage very often. But that seems like a pretty big % change for something that is very difficult to test the impact of…
but comparing with the current turks is around, say, 25%. But in that stage they are super weak… do you think it is too risky? I mean, without testing.
Other civs have better trash in that point…
That’s the thing i really have no idea… If it really reaches that stage it would mean the turk can make hypothetically 50% more gold units instead of the opposing guildless civs trash units…
While at the same time it isn’t helping turks much in the early game or vs archers where they are weaker due to lack of eco or common counters skirms /onagers …
I like more the idea of free chemistry in castle age, it’s more unique.
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yeah it certainly is unique, and realistically only +1 dmg in castle, since it has no other effect in castle age
Yeah, but their sipahi CA would benefit.
yeah it would be great. i think either this or sipahi affects scout line
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It could be both, turks wouldn’t be OP but then nobody would complain anymore that they are weak.
Its decided then! Developers get on it! Haha.
In seriousness though, with free chem in castle, how would skirms perform against archers? Could that help their weakness in that area?
Hahaha 
You wish it would be that way, lucky, for all the craziness that we propose, the devs and the pros act as a filter.
It is +1 earlier, which partially compensate for the lack of +2 of the ES, but as HP and PA they are still behind.
For 1v1s feudal ranged unit war will be quite in favor of Turks, but it won’t make them OP I guess. But TG flank archer/xbow, mid-castle cavalry archers play will be very strong. Will be an interesting change to see.
Turks can use any help they can get at this point lol
First of all, the only change would be in Castle Age. So I present before you the stats of Skirmishers with all castle age upgrades for Vikings vs Turks:
- HP 35 vs 30
- Attack (pierce) 5 vs 5
- Range 7 vs 6
- Attack vs archers 4 vs 3
- Attack vs Cavalry archers (stacks with that of archers) 2 vs 0
- Pierce armor 6 vs 5
Basically free Chemistry in Castle Age adds an insignificant attack boost to Skirmishers. There are 5 parameters where it is better to have Elite Skirmisher without chemistry.