Janissary advantage over other Castle Age ranged units is their high attack, allowing them to practically ignore pierce armor.
That’s what made them OP when they had 8 range on top of that, as they countered everything.
But also high cost, very low accuracy, no ballistics, and low rate of fire. They were much more balanced than the current Hindustani or Italian hand cannoneers.
Turks also needed them badly to fend off Conquistadors. Now, Conquistadors destroy them because Turks also lack Elite Skirmisher.
There was a reason why their range was 8 in the Castle Age.
With its high attack, even Knight struggle against it. So, xbow with ballistics beating janissary = fine. Yes, Turk lost a bit of powerspike but janissary can be still difficult to deal with for civs with average ranged units.
Turks gunpowder is one of the best and argubly the best in the game overall.
A fully upgraded generic xbow have +1 fletching, +1 bodkin and +1 from britions bonus
Again, you are comparing a Castle Age unit to an Imperial Age unit.
You are complaining that a unit that takes 290s longer to tech to, costs 1800 Food and 1300 Gold more to tech to, is more powerful than a unit you get now.
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Because all the Castle Age unique units still retain some advantages over their generic Imperial Age counterparts:
- A Castle Age Mangudai deals more damage to siege than an Imperial Age Heavy Cavalry Archer.
- A fully upgraded Castle Age Longbowman outranges an Imperial Age Arbalester.
- A Castle Age Genoese Crossbowman deals much more damage to cavalry than an Imperial Age Arbalester.
With that logic, Mangudai’s and Genoese Crossbowman’s bonus damage should be removed, and the Longbowman’s range should be nerfed, because they should be inferior in all aspects to their Imperial Age counterparts. Or, the Composite Bowman should start ignoring armor after the Imperial upgrade.
But we all know that it would ruin all of these units as much as they ruined the Janissaries.
The Janissary is now the only unique unit in the game that is immediately (and massively) outclassed by its counterpart unit in the Imperial Age in every single aspect.
They also have decent cavalry of their own, even one with a specific direct boost to pierce armor off the bat or the gold mining to supply yourself wjth some knights or rams of their own to distract the archery
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A Mangudai and Genoese Crossbowman deal less damage to spearman than their generic counter parts.
Longbowmen have less accuracy than Crossbowmen and Arbelsters.
There’s no design rule that a unique unit has to be more powerful in all aspects than their generic counter part.
I appreciate your honest help but before long you’re gonna also be put on ignore as well
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I consider it a bug. When they added Parthian Tactics to the Arambai they broke something. For 20 years, the CA and the Mangudai did exactly the same to the Pikemans.
I didn’t say a unique unit should be better than its generic counterpart in every aspect, because then you wouldn’t have any reason to train their generic counterparts.
You still have reasons to train both the unupgraded Genoese Crossbowman and the Arbalester because they have different pros and cons, just like the Mangudai and the Cavalry Archer. But you have no reason to prefer the Janissary over the Hand Cannoneer in the Castle Age because the Hand Cannoneer outclasses the Janissary in every single aspect.
You realized there is only one civ that has hand cannoneer (locked behind a tech) in castle age right?
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I would million time prefer having Conquistador or Organ Gun over the current Janissaries.
WE KNOW! Dude, you’re incessant when it comes to this subject.
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The advantage of the Janissary over the Hand Cannoneers in Imperial Age is that you can start training them in Castle Age, and they are one of the few UU that are strong enough to actually warrant training them in Castle Age.
In Imperial Age you can then upgrade them to Elite Janissary, and have a group of Hand Cannoneers on steroids 1 minute after hitting Imperial Age in your opponent’s base.
The main reason why Crossbowmen are viable in Castle Age is because you can start training them in Feudal Age.
I’m a tiny bit confused.
As a LEL i hate this civ, being spammed a tons in arena. It has good win-rates in arena and the range reduction made Turks castle drops much less outrageous.
An accuracy/range buff is NOT what they need, and would make them even more annoying! It would allow them to preform really well in small groups sniping villagers and siege. However, against groups of enemy units, the accuracy buff doesn’t really do anything to buff the unit, where missed shots generally just hit another unit. In other words, an accuracy/range buff would mainly buff the unit on Arena and in small counts but not against other groups of military units.
I think to buff them you would need to give them an armour buff (1/2 Melee → 3/4 Melee) and a small damage buff against cavalry, but reduce the non-elite hp from 44 → 42 to keep their matchup vs Mangonels.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen this unit on Arabia but don’t want to see it in arena at all. The melee armour buff makes sense (with real life janissaries carrying close quarters weapons) and if it isnt strong enough buff the pierce armour too.
They’ve sneakily nerfed the Turks to the ground, and I’m no longer going to comply with their horrendous decisions.
- First, they removed the skirmisher’s bonus damage against the cavalry archer armor class, further weakening Turk skirmishers in the Castle Age.
- Then, they astronomically inflated food prices, canceling the Turk’s option to buy food by utilizing their gold gathering bonus.
- Later, they made siege engineers benefit cannon galleons, thus weakening the Artillery tech’s effect.
- Cannon galleons with siege engineer now outrange Turk bombard towers, which was never the case before.
- They still haven’t addressed the Turks’ lack of options against elephants.
- And nerfing the Janissary’s range was the final nail in the coffin.
Dynasties of India has turned into Dynasties of nerfing the Turks into the ground.
The Janissary’s range is 8 with 55% accuracy, and the elite version has 70% accuracy and 56 HP in my mod now. The other horrendous decisions are also reverted back. That’s the deal, and not everyone has to accept it. But I’m not going to be okay with being destroyed by Conquistadors in every single game because of 7-ranged useless Janissaries.
Skirmishers never had bonus damage against the Cavalry Archer armor class.
They received 0 damage against the Cavalry Archer armor class to deal bonus damage to units with a negative value in Cavalry Archer armor class.
It other words it was a buff against certain units, e.g. Elephant Archers.
Can you then please silently use that mod, and stop spamming the forums?
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See, the trouble with this is that its actually easier to go age 4 and mass the immediately available HC’s out of archery ranges than it is to mass and upgrade jans out of castles through age 3.
If the plan is to get a large number of jans and then upgrade them then you pay 1800 res for age 4 and another 1600 res for the elite upgrade. Either case needs age 4, so we can balance that out - that leaves the 1600 elite cost. This is almost 17 HC’s.
Now, elite jans do have better stats + 5 damage, +1 range, +1 melee armor. Turk HC’s have just as much hp as elite jans, lower cost and better accuracy. How much is the cost worth?
To model it, lets say we have a mass of 50 jans. That would come out to 5750 res. With that, you can make almost 61 Normal HC’s. Then another 17 HC’s for the difference in the elite upgrade.
Now, why would I want 50 elite janissaries when I can have 78 turk HC’s?
You can reverse it by saying to stay in age 3, but again - why jans and not xbow/CA? Its a similar story with the cost.
The closest direct comparison is with the britons and the longbowmen/arbalester contest. Superficially, the only difference is an extra 1 range and damage. Yet that one damage ends up being a large change, since the base damage is so low, and the cost difference is very small between the units.
In the case of Jans vs HC’s … the basic HC has 17 base damage. Thats already enough to overwhelm pierce amor. The extra +5 is handy, not to the point that it really changes the equation vs many non-infantry units.
An unupgraded Castle Age unique unit must bring irreplaceable value even in the Imperial Age.
And when they bring this value, you get them in the Castle. And when you reach Imperial, the upgrade cost is justified because you had already massed them.
8-range Janissaries offered Turks an interesting choice whether to go with Janissaries, Cavalry Archers, or Fast Imperial, and that was the fun part. Both Janissaries and Conquistadors were purposefully designed a bit too good to offset these civilizations’ lackluster Dark and Feudal Ages.
That’s why the Conquistadors shouldn’t be nerfed either.