Ultimate thread to nerf the remaining S tier civs

So after DoTD we got balanced civs, but some older ones still remain at the very top on both 1v1 and TG and need nerf lol, is time to put end at their reign and let other average civs shine


  • Technologies now cost 15% starting at the feudal age (Previously it was 10%/15%/20%)
  • Chu Ko Nu gold cost raised to 40
  • (Standard) Chu Ko Nu base attack reduced to 7.
  • Elite Chu Ko Nu TT raised to the same as standard.
    Chinese, despite the nerf, are still way too strong and versatile on arabia and other maps with good eco, good UU, also the Elite upgrade doesn’t benefit them to much, so then if you want to use them massively at Imp you need to pick the elite upgrade rather than don’t.


  • Chivalry effect changed (From 40% fast working Stables) to the former Burgundian bonus (Fallen Knights return 33% of the gold cost)
  • The extra HP now only affects Knights instead of all cavalry
    Franks aren’t problem on 1v1, but they are deifnitively too strong in TG pcoket with such economy, free HP on Knights and more, also the hability to spam 40% faster 192HP paladins is absurdly stupid (Think by a moment if Chivalry was given to any other civ with paladin nad see how people will scream is OP), if 22 attack paladin was nerfed, these one need a bigger one. I haven’t got well yet if there other more healthy effect for Chivalry, but still.


  • Archer discount now is 10%/15%/20%.
  • Longer lasting resources nerfed from 15% to 10%
  • El Dorado cost raised from 750F and 450G to 1200F and 650G

Mayans are without doubt such absurd civ on Arabia and open maps because of a great eco by the extra villager, more res collected and that archer discount (30% discounted fully upgraded arbalest? is too much unless they lacked an importnat archer tech like how the Berber and Goths discount work.Also, El Dorado is way one of the strongest and game ending UTs for the infamous eagle warrior and needs to be a great investment, given on how strong the Mayans eco is.


  • Warships discount reduced in feudal to 10% (as well the team bonus)
  • Some nerf to the Longboat? (Not figured out)
  • Take something out of the tech tree regarding archers (Thumb Ring?)

Vikings are by far a problematic civ to balance because they have OP eco but less powerful military, also, they are extremely strong on any water map and don’t let other civs to shine here. Nerfing their archer could help but still think isn’t neccesary at the end.

A plus one that needs to be adressed lol:

  • Hauberk technology or the 50% less bonus damage in some way reworked OR

  • Remove Bloodlines

  • The current new team bonus removed, changed to all ships having extra LOS or something lol

There no doubt… How is even remotely close healthy having a cavalier that can’t be converted, absorbs 50% bonus damage and get armor enough strong to tank more arbalester arrows than even the frankish paladin, how you exactly can fight that in 1v1 (because in TGs their cavalier are less scarier, and lol people trashed out 22 attack lithuanian paladin when this cavalier is way stupid and OP). Also, their team bonus is just lame, silly, and poorly thought out there, you can abuse this by several ways, land and rush or whatever you wish to do without any drawback, is stupid.

I can bring more examples of other things that need nerf, but those are more specific, and I want mostly to discuss here the major ones.


Like those changes.

You could also swap the Inca and Chinese team bonus I guess (and you can bring the extra food on farms to their older state by doing that)

This is nerfing something that doesnt have to be nerfed at all. The problem is the Longboat.

Also a bad nerf imo.

Doubt it.

Either way I would rather keep the bringing gold on death somewhere else.

Why not nerf its effect instead then?

The archer discount nerf is good, but not sure if the resource bonus has to be nerfed with all their military options nerfed.

Would rather remove the First Crusade secondary effect and reduce the damage reduction bonus.

Also, can you stop bringing Lithuanians into every thread please? Pretty sure the ammount of relics in arabia has been buffed as well.

The problem is the conjunction of all those bonuses and UU

Indians had arbalester and their eco is comparable to Vikings, was deemed OP

Yes it will be broken regardless of what paladin civ gets it, and currently is OP, you can’t even match the Franks production later unless you have way more stables.

Because nerfing the effect won’t make any difference, if is to just 35 or 30 HP, and if is 20 HP then is useless.

First crusade is poorly designed too, but is barely a game breaking thing, unlike what Hauberk currently is.

Their feudal age is always considered the weak part of the civ on water, why are you nerfing it?

I think at 30 it would still be strong but clearly weaker, surviving 10% less against archers and 15% less against knights, tbh I agree with a cost increase but the current effect of the UT is just kind of silly

Vikings have a better eco than Indians, but Indians just have more late game options. Vikings are already really limited by late game. I think that if something has to be nerfed for Vikings it should be to allow other civs to get wheelbarrow and hand cart earlier.

Maybe, but I doubt no one would complain more about it if it were in other civ.

Maybe its just that I like the idea of Cavaliers of pierce armour and that I think the damage reduction bonus is silly, but I just rather make the cavalier more vulnerable in other ways

Well Aztecs have received these nerfs:

  • Military units training time reduced from 18% to 11%
  • Carry cap reduced from +5 to +3.

I think Aztecs have been nerfed enough, they aren’t that crazy anymore, but still very strong


Nerf S tier civs…

Sicilians with less than 48% average win rate are now as problematic as S tier civs? 11
And if they aren’t and you just want to nerf them, because reasons, what sort of buff you propose to compensate them? Or you just like to see them in the dirt?


I don’t think that it’ll change much, but ok…

I think that for now the gold cost increase it could be enough. Chinese are mainly strong thanks to their head starts in vills and open tech tree. The CKN is for sure too strong, but not that much…

That would be an useless UT… I mean, there is a reason if it never make it to the game…

Chivalry was already nerfed, if you want to further delay its research, then increase the cost, or increase the time needed to research it.

Again, maybe let’s try with one first, then add the other one in a second time if it’s still needed…

I would personally choose the second one to start with.

Could work…

I don’t think that it’ll change much. Most of the problem of water balance is due to the meta, not to the civs themselves…

Also, if you nerf vikings, you should nerf Italians and portoghese as well, otherwise you just get from a 3 civ meta, to a 2 civ meta.

I get it that vikings are an infantry civ, but their tech tree is already quite limited (terrible cav, terrible monks and siege, no halbs, no gunpowder…) you can’t nerf their archers without compensate somewhere else…

I agree with it, but I don’t think that we will see such changes… Sicilians win rates haven’t increased much, so they aren’t that OP. Their main problem is that those bonuses doesn’t promote great gameplay, but nobody cares about that so…

Chinese aren’t top tier because of the chu ko nu, my man. Nerfing that unit does nothing, since they already 99% of the time don’t build it.


Chinese and sicilians are fine. For the rest: yes please.

The sizikian haubeek cavalier ist still worse than a paladin overall.

And Chinese are already in or close to worst 5 civ when looking at all players. Yes they are good for pros, still. Making them a perfectly balanced civ that is great with skill and bad without, but further nerfong them would just turn them into a bad for everyone.


this change nothing… u must up eagle cost or for pulme archers

this didnt help. their still TOP3 best civ

I would do it like this:

-El Dorado HP lowered by -5
-start with -75 instead of -50 food.

-hand cart and wheelbarrow are researched free but not instantly.
-no water nerf just yet to see how the hit to their eco bonus would affect the meta first

-either stayunchanged
-or remove the conversion resistance effect from first crusade, not because of balance but because it is already teutons bonus and restores atleast one counter fully for their knights that resist halbs, monks and archers currently.
-their cavalier are overall still not better than paladins, only benefit is cheaper to get there. Sizilkians needed a powerspike, this is fine.

-lose sqirrers again like in aoc to make their infstry slower
-farm techs are resesrched instantly but not free

-maybe chu ku Nu +5 gold or just stay unchanged
-one less extra vill at start and compensated by more food

make 20 hp lower dorado. their to strong now

i think the biggest problem is they border on OP for top elo, and very bad for low elo, meaning they are a strong but hard to use civ…

thats why ive said a few times they should have their start modified, weaken it but make it more user friendly, as it currently stands by end of feudal the chinese player is ahead by 2 vils.

2 vils is probably the hardest to understand how strong that actually is, because it isnt simply 100 food, the res generated off 2 extra vils is massive and increases with every second.

so i recommended -1 vil + 50f, or balance around the food, (aka possibly more food, but start with 50)

they could at best change it to 1/1… dont forget a lot of perceptions towards sicilians are purely emotional and have almost nothing to do with their actual win rate or weakness earlier on…

they are still very weak to tower rushes (espcially on socotra mk II) and they still have not only 1 of the weakest ecos, but it forces them to lag, since you HAVE to take horse collar, otherwise forfeit your eco bonus… in the same way cumans were forced to lag in order to use their eco. which is a weakness and 100% exploitable… while the 50% damage reduction is really not as good as people make it out to be…

like how people were freaking out with turks +1PA, and it turned into a non event

change their eco bonus. that is what makes them overbearing, it is arguably actually the single strongest eco in the game. this is just a quick calculation so someone can correct me:

feudal age:

by the time the opponent takes WB, vikings can train 3 vils

WB kicks in IMMEDIATELY on feudal , so even if you gave another player the 175f 50w they would still need to research WB, meaning vikings are still ahead for 75s of res gen, almost no one takes WB start of feudal, meaning vikings are ahead for minutes, never mind 75s, and many builds only have WB in castle

castle age becomes a little more murky and dependent on multiple TCs, but either way its still 300f 200w + vil time dependent on TCs but at least 1 vil ahead

so vikings eco = +475f +250w +4 vils on top of the upgrades coming in earlier meaning some multiplicative of res income on all vils…

that is the issue, not their tech tree… Vikings have the worst kts in the game, yet regularly win using kts… lack of TR wont change that

i agree on this, but eagles are still too brain dead of a unit, i still say either eagles get nerfed incrementally (+10f) or something along those lines

rather reduce the effect, as they will still be almost impossible to deal with in certain match ups

knock it down to 30% effect

not even remotely true, there are a large number of factors that pull their win rate closer to 50% than it actually is, as explained in the link i posted yesterday

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Not a nerf

Do as you wish, but chu ko nu are not the reason why Chinese is that strong

Same as above

You are not changing anything that makes the civ strong, while making their feudala but stronger. Lmao

No. The last thing Franks need is getting back gold when they lose cavaliers/paladin in 1v1.
If you want to nerf them you have to hit their eco, not their stable.


Also fine

Plain and simple dumb. Nerf their hp, but you are hitting their only good late game unit way too much by making the tech cost almost as much as paladins.
You are nerfing their eco, their early game AND their late game. No sense in this

This are both fine

Nope. Vikings late game simply suck, no reason to weaken their only viable option. If you want to nerf them you have to hit their eco, not their military


I don’t know why Devs didn’t nerf Mayan archer discount until now? Other discounts come with nerf like Goths and Huns lack last armor upgrades but Mayans has fully upgraded archers and they gain best discount after Goths with 15% all resources lasting including gold. 10%/15%/20% is must but plumed archer cost should drop 50 gold 50 wood to equalize before nerf cost.

Eagles power mostly rely on strength of Monks and ineffectiveness of Longswords. Knights and crossbow combo can beat Eagles actually but 4-5 Monks turn the table immediately. I think Knight at least should be more resistant to conversion. Also all infantries need buff in Castle Age. In imperial age, they aren’t most used unit but they are fine nevertheless. If knight resist conversion more and infantries get buff they are desperate of, Eagles won’t be OP anymore.

My ideas:


  • 20% hp bonus starts in castle age (instead of feudal)
  • Castles 25% discount starts in imperial


  • eldorado +20hp instead of +40 (even trade 6hits/6hits vs aztecs, win 7hits/8hits vs incas)
  • remove last archers armor (like goths and poles)


  • no +1 archers range in imperial
  • TCs cost -75 wood (instead of -137)


  • no free handcart (only free wheelbarrow


  • technologies still cost -10% in castle and imperial age (instead of -15% and -20%)

free wheelbarrow is a lot stronger than free handcard though. Viper suggest 50% cheaper and faster (33% less time). It is more logical I think than only wheelbarrow free but Vikings should get buff if it get these nerfs. Giving Berserker -2/+1 armor is pleasant. In this way, Berserker specialize in raiding and Viking champion in melee fighting.

For Mayans and chinese I would reduce the amount of extra vills from the start for more food so it is easier to execute these civs even if you aren’t used to them. Both civs excel in higher elos way more because lower elo can’t really play them to their full potential:


  • Start with 2 extra Villagers (instead of 3), start with - 100 Food, -50 Wood.


  • Have normal start
  • El Dorado affects all Infantry. Cost increased to 1200 F 500 G. Lose access to Halberdier. Reason: Mayans are too fixed towards their archer/eagle play. This new El dorado would open a bit more flexibility in the Lategame.


  • Remove forage bonus entirely, give it to another civ.
  • Increase HP of Cavalry by 25 % in Imp only. Franks should maintain there status as the “Best Paladin” civ.


  • Only get Wheelbarrow for free, but from dark age. Hand Cart needs to be researched normally. (Free Hand Cart is just too much of a midgame bonus. It could be possible to make it either cost free or whatever, but I like to keep it simple. Just Wheelbarrow from the beginning of the game is fine.)
  • Berserkergang: Also spearman line slowly regenerates HP, but slower than berserks. (Basically same reason as for the el dorado change.)


  • Receive 100 F from the beginning (150 is just too much in certain maps)
  • Spearmen and Skirms move 20 % faster (compensation)
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I’d love to see spearmen move almost as fast as knights (without husbandry) :smiley:

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