i’d not play a retainer at 170 hp , like ever, you lowered so many breakpoint with that nerf it isn’t even funny.
Same with the piechur, all you do here is making leicai a no brainer for the 20 range skirm need.
Agrarian reforms, Sustainable Agriculture, Wodka Distillery + a factory and the Sejm Upgrade card. That’s 5 cards. Six if you want Grain Exports.
The devs did it with Sweden, arguably Japan and the Dutch has the same thing, Inca too. You can say they should have 99 vills, but you can’t really say I’m suggesting something unprecedented.
In team Sup (3v3, 4v4) you often get Euro Civs with Eco Theory, Refrigeration, Royal Mint, and 2 Factories (5 cards), then some will add Textile Mill (6), and a few like Ports might add 1-2 more because they want to go late game. Agrarian Reforms, Sustainable Agriculture, Wodka, Grain Exports, and the equivalent of 2 factories at 6 cards isn’t crazy to walk into a mid level (1400-1700 elo) 3v3 with at all imo. Dutch often take like 6ish eco cards into a 3v3, needing like 4 cards for Banks alone (the 3 for build limit (counting the Unique Church) and 1 for gather rate). This isn’t some unprecedented way of looking at things imo.
Just at base rates (no cards), 170w + 150w =320w per Folwark which is a house + a mill with a rate of 0.69. 0.69 + 45% =1.0005 (just two mill techs). Assuming a Farm gives you like 0.5 +45% = 0.725 (~25% lower) on a more expensive building. Btw, you might have noticed I suggested giving Poland the two mill techs (an age 2 and an age 3 tech) for free from the start of the game (which would give you a higher rate at the beginning of the game than you currently have, at the expense of an overpowered state you won’t always reach later, which still ends up being quite efficient).
You can also get 2/5 of your Imperial resource gather rates upgrades between ages 3-4. It costs a little more, but early access is good and with the Treaty of Lublin tech you can discount them. That’s an extra +5, and 15% respectively that other civs have to wait until age 5 for.
Not to mention that you have an eco bonus of 15% cheaper buildings with ~18% less hp that, though with Sejm Techs your buildings eventually get higher hp than a normal civ’s (with the same discount still helping you). Those hp techs are also tied to the Wood rate upgrades which is the most likely thing you want the Sejm to make.
You understand that the Hetman heals units even while in combat, right? I made it part of civ bones (currently it’s ~10hp per second with the Grand Hetman (I) card). Close breakpoints will all normally get rounded up as long as you’re close to the hero.
~vs a Hussar:
170hp -22.5 (because from my understanding armor reduces the incoming damage) = 147.5 +2 = 149.5 -22.5 = 127 +2 = 129 -22.5 = 106.5 +2 = 108.5 -22.5 = 86 +2 = 88 -22.5 = 63.5 +2 = 65.5 -22.5 = 43 +2 = 45 -22.5 = 22.5 + 2 = 25.5 -22.5 = 3 +2 = 5 -22.5 = death after 9 hits (though it would actually heal 3hp per 1.5 seconds on average, but I didn’t want to adjust for the possibility of weirdness with the application of hp ever second and damage even 1.5 seconds, so I rounded against my argument).
A hussar can kill a hussar in about 11 swings, 320 / 30 =10.667, but you have to round up.
With 18 x 1.5 against cavalry you get 12 hits to kill a Hussar on a unit that costs significantly less than a hussar, both in pop and resources. The unit would also train faster than a lot of infantry (despite being cavalry).
The one big place to be careful would be around TCs, but after sending the +15% hp card in age 2 you get 195.5 which should let you survive an extra shot. The unit should also be nearly un-catchable in age 2 given its higher speed, so a weak spot seems warranted. Winged Hussars will also be better at Raiding than before so you can mix some in.
They have less hp, and lower armor. They also cap out at a much lower damage vs Heavy Infantry. I don’t think it will, outside of maybe a few MUs in 1v1, but then, shouldn’t units sometimes be situationally better?
Also, for 1v1, more damage vs heavy infantry on a skirm is arguably better given that your base has lower hp in age 2-3 than normal. You’re extra weak to units with higher siege, which in age 2 are normally heavy infantry.
Sejm to be stronger then a Factory needs you to research a bunch of techs, have a high villager count and send Democracy of Nobles card.
That is gather rates of Poles Settler on a Folwark and a Farming Folwark compared to other civilizations with their Food gathering building and any way to improve the rates without any card or tech.
Nerf Folwark by making them cost 200 Wood to build and 200 Wood to upgrade to a Farming Folwark to make it be comparable to most other civilizations Food gathering building in total cost. Make the Farming Folwark upgrade be equal to Lakota gather rate with a nearby Teepee and Hausa/Ethiopian with a nearby Granary.
I hate that they did it with Sweden because their Torp becomes useless when not having natural resources near them which would eventually happen requiring you to have specific cards in your deck so Torps aren’t totally useless as a economy thing later on.
Dutch Banks generate resources on their own being a simple build and never have to worry about them thing so obviously they would not of had a 99 villager limit because then they would have a economy advantage at every state of the game. In AoE III DE they buffed the Age I bank cards to increase villager build limit by +5 for each of those cards to help boost Dutch late game economy.
Japanese Shrines automatically generate resources on their own not needing anything to do so and get better rates with animals nearby and a tech to research that boosts it more and like Dutch would have a economy advantage at every stage of the game without a reduced villager limit. In AoE III DE they added the ability to get a Livestock Pen from the Consulate to help Japan with their late game economy. I would like a little higher villager build limit with Japanese.
Inca Kancha Houses automatically generate Food all on their own and can have their Estates generate Coin all on their own with a tech so I understand why they reduced their villager count but they didn’t reduce it to 85 which which would be too low just like it would be too low a count for Poles.
Cards that a civilization has access to shouldn’t have any effect on reducing villager build limit whatsoever because not everyone uses all the cards and that is something I will never ever change my view on.
At most I could tolerate a 90 villager build limit with Poles because of the Sejm but they need to buff Poles water economy which is the weakest in the late game despite having 2 cards to increase Fishing Boats gather rate for Food and Coin because they don’t have Imperial upgrades that boosts the rates for Fish and Whale gathering like every other civilization does.
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The issue comes from every tech being on top of that 0.69 instead of the original 0.50; thts why they get an insanely higher gather rate.
Folwarks are cheaper (even more after logistian), grant pop slots and train units.
Amd then, poles dont need estates, wodka is enough for them to train units.
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And you can see from your own post that on a farming Folwark you have a 38% higher base rate because the vills stand still like Native Vills on Farms (thus me saying “farm” a lot) or a Rice Paddy on food. The mill comparison is pretty bad given that they switch from walking (at 0 gather rate) and gathering at 0.67. If Folwarks were 0.69 and the vills spent a ton of time walking around we wouldn’t talking about Farming Folwarks.
A better comparison specifically on food farms, would be a CDB (1.25 vills) on a farm, though he should (mathematically speaking) only gather at 0.625 without upgrades.
A Polish Villager on a Farming Folwark is worth about 1.38 vills (compared to a vill on a farm), or ~1.518 with the +10% Current Rate Upgrade from Wodka. That’d theoretically put a fair vill cap (based on the French Villager Calculation) at ~72.5 or ~65.9 vills. Obviously, that’d only be a fair number if you could structure your economy around only farming… oh… [edit, of course the trade card reduces the efficiency, but I think it’s still really good currently]
Nerfing the base rate on a Farming Folwark to 0.54 lowers the higher base rate from 38% higher to 8% higher. That’d mean assuming (all farming) you’d have a fair Vill cap of ~92.5 (with each vill valued at 1.08) or ~84.17 (with each vill being valued at 1.188 with Wodka. Current-stat-upgrades are massively good). Obviously though, you won’t always be going full vills on Folwarks (except for late game now when you totally can), but you have the Sejm and the discounts, plus the hero healing nearby Cav even in combat to make up the rest.
I think there’s a real argument for 90 vills with the Folwark base rate nerfs, but I feel like you’re a ways away from that. I could even see an argument that Wodka (at least the coin from farming part) is so important to the civ that it should be a tech instead of a card to allow a more fine-tuned vill cap.
From a treaty POV, we haven’t even mentioned the pig eco [in this specific post], but frankly I’m not sure how you fix that for Treaty without doing some damage elsewhere. I doubt my most recent change log would be enough to fix Poland in treaty, but at least it would help.
The reason I didn’t suggest a cost increase was because it wouldn’t fix the issue. Right now late game 99 Polish Vills on food working like they are worth ~150 vills (thanks to the higher base rate and Wodka [though less due to trade inefficiency]) which allows you to just gather food (and trickle coin) and Grain Export occasionally. Nerfing them to 0.54 is actually pretty similar to the Lakota TP on farms (because a base rate buff and a current rate buff are very similar). Lakota get that buff on all recourses, but have less coin rate upgrades and lack a 2 Factories equivalent. They also get less meaningful discounts imo and no real artillery.
So it doesn’t get lost in the noise: A Polish Villager on a Farming Folwark is worth about 1.38, or 1.518 vills with the +10% Current Rate Upgrade from Wodka.
If you notice how I suggested adding free Seed Drill and Artificial Fertilizer to the civ bonus, I actually believe a farm boom was an intended feature of the civ, so I didn’t want to hurt that. It just really badly needs to scale less hard. With free Seed Drill and Artificial Fertilizer on a 0.54 base you get 0.783 (without Agrarian Refs) or 0.945 with. Which gets you to a hunt-like rate in base which is really good for like age 1-2. It’s also a rate buff compared to just a current Farming Folwark with AR for ~0.897. It’s just worse after you start stacking upgrades.
The French were probably a better comparison than Japan given the nature of how the eco bonuses work. I picked Japan because it’s a civ perceived to have a decent eco and has Rice Paddies which convert to Folwarks easily. 1.3 food on one is the same on the other.
Sure. No problem with that. Could even add another fishing card probably.
As much as you may not believe me, I’m not trying to destroy the civ. imo certain parts of it are just so outside the norm mathematically that larger changes are required to bring things back to reality. Then some other parts seem pretty underpowered and not worth using (at least by comparison, if not outright bad), and I did suggest a few things to help earlier on, just normally at the expense of late game scaling or the Ottoman-ish church laming stuff. I’d like to see more “raid and boom behind it” or “boom and then go raid with CA and Winged Hussars before hitting their army with a cavalry death ball” than this 2 falc + Jans + Uhlans timing, or go late game and overwhelm them with mathematical insanity and gobs of Retainers.
Amd then, poles dont need estates, wodka is enough for them to train units.
wodka is not near enough lol, you need estates o trade
Whoever thinks that folwarks with vodka somehow can replace estates for poland is truly delusional.
They for sure cannot replace estates in late game. The amount of units you need to train will depleat your gold in no time, unless the enemy is making very bad trades.
99×0.16 is more than 2 factories + sejm + 1.5 from taverns + another factory is more than 4 factories on gold.
Add grain export and you defenitely dont need any estate ever, building them is wasting resources.
A nosense of economy balance wise
The polish civ is just the new whipping boy civ, like swedes used to be.
Yeah this was bad balancing for the Swedes. Their peak eco advantage is early to mid game which a lower villager cap does nothing to address.
Instead of a lower cap, something like slightly slower villager training would blunt their early advantage while not affecting their maximum eco.
Poland doesn’t need a lower villager cap either. They just need Folwark stats and the Kielbasa card to not be insane. Even just adding wandering to Folwarks would probably be enough to bring things down to earth.
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The problem with this troop isn’t its population cost, but its multipliers.
Heavy cavalry that kills ALL cavalry shouldn’t exist.
The Winged Hussar is an okay unit.
The stampede attack is still bugged; this should be fixed.
A cavalry-focused civ without the cavalry card isn’t a good idea.
Poland’s biggest problem is the eco
That civ has an absurd economi.
I made an updated list from further along in the thread. I think there would be a few other options on a few things.
Reducing the villager count of a civ that has 1-pop cavalry and a skirmisher that kills other skirmishers isn’t a good idea.
All the civs that did that didn’t succeed—it just killed off the civs They nerfed it into the ground… like Sweden and Inca
EDIT Just removing the trade and adjusting the food collection is enough.