Unique Unit Concept: Ashigaru Arquebusier

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

During the 16th century, Japan utilized muskets from European merchants, and firearms were heavily used during the Sengoku period.

The Ashigaru Arquebusier is a secondary Japanese Unique Unit only available in the Imperial Age. It is a unique Hand Cannoneer that replaces the standard Hand Cannoneer in the Archery Range, and has better stats.

Cost: Same as for Hand Cannoneer

Stats:
HP: 55
Base Attack: 18
RoF: 3.45
Frame delay: 15
Attack delay: 0.35
Base Range: 7
Accuracy: 85%
Projectile speed: 7.5
Base Melee Armor: 1
Base Pierce Armor: 1
Speed: 0.96
LOS: 9

7 Likes
2

I like the concept of Japanese having some kind of handcannoneer bonus or UU, and I think the civ is in a place of not necessarily needing a buff, but also not in much danger of being overpowered if it were to receive one.

The issue I see with this is that it bears a lot of resemblance to existing hand cannoneer bonuses/UTs/UUs. Like a bit of the Turks’ HP bonus, the Burgundians’ damage bonus, and Hindustanis extra armor and/or kind of looks like a worse Janissary. I don’t want to overemphasize this point, as most hypothetical new units can be expressed in terms of similarity existing units, and some similarity to existing things doesn’t mean that the idea is bad. But I think it’s an important consideration.

Perhaps more importantly, I would question whether Japanese need anything more that primarily serves as anti-infantry. They already have regular Hand cannons (I get that this is a replacement, but even without HC Japanese might even be fine), Arbs, HCA, Heavy Scorps, top notch Champions, and even the Samurai, which is only really good as an anti-UU with reference to enemy Unique Infantry.

Personally I would make it quantity over quality. IIRC Japan at one point had the largest production of firearms in the world, so instead of a UU I would have this reflected via a civ bonus or UT that improves speed and training time, and/or decreases cost (possibly even shifting some of the current gold cost to food). It’s true that these are also similar to existing bonuses, but I think they make more sense for Japanese than just dialing up the power of the unit.

If it must be a UU, IMO it should have a different area of competency than anti-infantry. Perhaps it has a small bonus against siege, or even mounted/archer UUs (but not infantry UUs). Perhaps it has a lower attack, but an ignore armor/destroy armor ability. Perhaps it resists some anti-archer damage. Just some ideas, but if it’s going to be a UU, I would differentiate it from the powered-up HCs of other civs.

3

Japan is in a weird state of being OK-ish until imp, but transitioning to Yasama towers takes so long and is so expensive that they usually play out as a halb SO civ without actually having SO.

They also struggle a lot against both hussar CA and halb SO compositions, the two dominant comps in imp.

I wholly support japan getting a strong backline unit, but I’d like to see it a bit more specialist, such as, instead of 55 HP and mostly generic stats as OP proposed, maybe 40 HP, 1 more range, and more damage, or bonus against archers as well.

4

I like the idea of an Ashigaru unit replacing the hand cannoneer, but a unit with the same cost and higher stats doesn’t make sense to me, in terms of balance and history. I just don’t see why the Japanese need more power against infantry. I’d make them a quantity over quality unit like they were in the 16th (not 15th) century. Maybe they could lose their bonus against infantry and become more of an all-rounder that can be used against cavalry as well if you have enough of them. Kinda what happened in real life

5

Ashigaru have good appearance with their Tanegashima gun. My concept is a cheaper handcannoner with less HP and damage but who gain ranged armor bonus when fighting in group or next to samurai. Also don’t give them a sashimono because with this they will look like too many the elite samurai.

Also this unit can be used in all the present scenarios featuring the japanese (expect Kurikara 1183)

640px-Ashigaru_using_shields_(tate)
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Cheaper unit
I think this replacement for the Hand Cannoneer must be cheaper because when arquebus were introduced in Japan there were mass produced. Cost - 5 food and - 10 gold

Less training time
Also Ashigaru equipped with Tanegashima gun require little training compared with the longbow. This allowed to use many of them in battle. Trained in 25 seconds instead of 34 seconds.

Less HP
Ashigaru were not the better warrior of the japanese army (this were the samurais). Have -5 HP.

Less damage
Ashigaru were not the better warrior of the japanese army but this was compensate by the cheaper cost of the unit. Have -1 damage.

Gain ranged armor when fighting in group
Many of them fight during battle protected by wooden pavise. Also there were commanded by samourai. They gain renged armor when fighting within the range of another ashigaru or in the range of another samouraï. gain +2 ranged armor when fighting alongside of ashigaru or samurai.

Don’t have the unique unit armor class
Ashigaru don’t have the unique unit armor class because they must counter samurai not be countered by them.

Ashigaru

Japanese unique unit

Available at Imperial age in Archery range after researching chemistry
Replace : handcannoner

Cost : 40 Food, 40 Gold
Training time : 25 seconds

HP : 35
Pierce attack : 16
Attack bonus : +2 vs infantry, +4 vs Ram, +1 vs spearmen
Reload time : 3.45
Attack delay : 0.35
Range : 7.5
Accuracy : 75%
Projectile speed : 7
Melee armor : 1
Pierce armor : 0
Armor class : Archer, Gunpowder unit
Speed : 0.96
Line of Sight : 9

Aura : gain +2 ranged armor when fighting (not staking) in the range of another ashigaru or another samurai within a radius of 5 cases
Aura range : A radius of 5 cases

Special : don’t have the unique unit armor class (don’t take bonus damage from samurai)

6

Non-gunpowder civilizations should never get better hand cannoneers than fully upgraded ones. The Japanese already have a full Barracks and Archery Range with very strong bonuses.

Aura boost features are also unattractive. They add annoying and unnecessary complexity and force you to keep track of an additional mechanic. Just give the stats to the unit and remove all aura effects.

Keep it simple.

7

If I was designing an ashigaru arquebusier unit, I’d probably make it a trash hand cannoneer – i.e. only costs wood and food, with a weak base attack and relying more on bonus damage (presumably against infantry). As trash units they’d be easy to produce in the late game, reflecting both the fact that ashigaru were conscripts with often limited training, and the mass production of guns in Japan. I think I’d give it a snappier name, either ashigaru or tanegashima.

That said, guns didn’t make it to Japan until 1543, which is pretty late in the time period, and I think Japanese just having hand cannoneers is sufficient. I do think Japanese could get a new unique unit, or even two – especially since having two unique units, and some regional units, is gradually becoming the norm – but I’d rather see something that works across more of the time period. My favourite suggestion I’ve seen is a miko, as an archer that can also heal, trained at the monastery – basically a ranged but squishy (low HP/armour) warrior priest. It wouldn’t be all that historical, though…

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8

If the Japanese were to get a 2nd UU, then the Ninja or Shinobi would probably be the best option, given that it’s already in the Scenario Editor.

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9

I think that would be the best choice, yes…

But then the bonus against heroes begs to question; wouldn’t this just normalize heroes in multiplayer? Having a built-in counter kind of lends to that thought…

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10

maybe just give them a unique skin and that’s it really. Ninja is a better choice for a 2nd UU as they already exist in the game. Though, they definitely will need some stat changes. I think they could make Ninja a raiding unit that can climb through wall without siege tower and do high bonus vs buildings.

11

If I was designing an ashigaru arquebusier unit, I’d probably make it a trash hand cannoneer – i.e. only costs wood and food, with a weak base attack and relying more on bonus damage (presumably against infantry). As trash units they’d be easy to produce in the late game, reflecting both the fact that ashigaru were conscripts with often limited training, and the mass production of guns in Japan. I think I’d give it a snappier name, either ashigaru or tanegashima.

Same concept as you I view the ashigaru as a weakest unit but cheapest and with low training time.

12

I’d say Ashigaru should cost a pinch more than the unit they are equivalent of, but in exchange be faster and have their other stats also be a pinch better.

But why stop there? Also have the Japanese civ be uncapable of hunting, but in exchange they have Shrines instead of houses which generate resources without the need of villagers by attracting wild animals.

And while we’re there why not also give them special, named cavalry units that can train their other infantry and cavalry right on the battlefield!