UPDATE 56005 and why it is great

so true unfortunately.

i am the exception though!

BUFF goths Cavalry, we are bored to be one trick pony!

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Well it’s not an assumption, it’s how vikings is usually played. Of course each game is somewhat different but mostly you see them booming and going on the defensive in castle age to get to imp asap. Also the time window in early imp isn’t that short. Oftentimes this even leads to the situation the opponent is forced into prolonged castle age with a lot of skirms to defend from archer pressure. And missing tr in castle age isn’t a huge thing as people tend to skip it either way with vikings and bank up the food to go imp.

Why? You make skirms vs arbs and berserks as your gold unit. It’s an expensive but also increadingly powerful comp that you rarely saw bc vikings fast imp arb was so much more effective and zerk upgrades were just to costly. So all the changes make perfect sense to me.

Of course not. Fast imp is only an archer/siege strategy and not great for melee (ie units that cost a lot of food) units. But with that insane eco bonus there is no issue for 4+ tc play with longer castle age and then switch to infantry later. Btw the main advantage of non-elite berserks being better isn’t really how good they are in castle age but how they perform in imp before you can research elite (which usually happens quite late with most melee UU if you see them at all).

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Spirit of the Law just posted his video. Either 3 men-at-arms or 5 scouts now bring down a house faster than one villager can repair it.

According to Spirit of the Law, it takes higher-level players (1700 Elo) about 62 palisades to wall old Arabia. The current Arabia seems more open, as my quick tests were around 70 walls. In either case, that’s around one villager working for three minutes just for the extra wood. Put another way, what would you think of a game you’re watching where one player has three minutes of ‘villager idle time’ in dark age?

The reason why I believe this removes dark-age walling as a viable strategy on Arabia (or intentionally open maps), is because that’s exactly why developers made the change. Even Spirit of Law now predicts a switch from full walling to resource walling.

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I would prefer it be changed to Tc techs research 100/% faster and 50% cheaper

I think idle time doesn’t matter when the Villager is still doing what you want them to do, which is building walls to support a Fast Castle strategy, where early economy is weak now for a bigger mid-game eco later. And if idle time counts, then Feudal aggression ought to count its own Villager and Military idle time and compare it to the idle time of a Fast Castle build. I’d wager the Fast Castle build has less total idle time than Feudal aggression, which is one reason for why walls are a natural counter to Feudal aggression, why walls can never balance vs. Feudal aggression without making walls useless for everybody, and why buffing tools to counter the Fast Castle strategy is the only way to weaken FC.

it’s a good update but some UU infantries are still kinda bad and should be avoided most of the time. Shotel warriors are still overpriced for what they offer. Teutonic knight’s core problem is still untouched (slow speed is the main reason why they are mostly useless, same speed as milita line maybe). Gbeto is still squishy as ever and still gold heavy for how much you get from them. Samurai is still a worse champion in most case.
Also the UU elite infantries are still the same, so the problem is still the same in imperial.

i see no problem with this. repairing a wall/house shouldn’t be a defense.

walling has been so strong that it is STILL, even after all the nerfs (we will see what the recent nerfs do) the go to strategy of teh game in most cases. even on arabia. so yes, defenses were very good and will still be good. now you MIGHT have to actually invest into military instead of just repairing a wall to counter a military threat.
by your 70 tile statement - that means 210 resources to full wall.
you know how many resources go into a 3 men at arms push? 320. not counting the barracks.

yes lets make TK, who have HUGE ATTACK and ARMOR the same speed as Champions. what could possibly go wrong.

they are a raiding unit/hit and run unit. they aren’t supposed to be a unit that is taking lots of damage.

its got a niche role as a unique unit killer. and there even castle age samurai are better then champs.

you know it’s funny, because i still see infantry unique units more then i see cavalry unique units, but i don’t see you complaining about those.

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I don’t think they will ever buff TK speed again because rn after squires they are almost as fast as a no squires champ (0.88 vs 0.9) so if their speed is buffed again they will be faster than the champions of some civs which would be pretty stupid.


They seem about right after the last buff. I could see them going to 0.85 at most, which is 0.935 after squires. They definitely should not be faster than archers.

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I was just calculating the extra 70 wood. SOTL did a video calculating the cost of walling. It believe it was 5.43 resources per wall (due to villager time). That was before the increase in walling time and increase in wood. So, let’s say 7 now (and extra 1 for wood and an extra .67 for villager time). That 490 resources.

The cost comparison between walling and men-at-arms is really irrelevant. I just wanted to clarify that the cost of walling is not 70*3.

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okay. and a barracks brings up the cost of a men at arms push to over 490 resources.
and guess what? you can still easily hold 3 men at arms by just repairing your bloody palisade.

i know this. i was talking the direct cost only. i mean you want to talk indirect costs? how much faster could i go up to castle age by not investing 320 resources into 3 men at arms?

fact is though that at the end of the day walling will still be the absolute meta, it’s just more costly to do so. your wall and FC build is STILL completely viable. It’s quite sad watching all you “walling is being unfairly nerfed” crowd while Walling is still the main go to strategy in the game, and defensive play still reigns supreme, Meanwhile no one sees any reason to really invest more into feudal pressure then 3 men at arms or 4 scouts. this is why people want walls nerfed. because realistically speaking, feudal aggression is just not an option without a huge investment, and even then it’s going to be held with minimal investment from the other side.

We completely disagree. The game rules are decidedly in favor of the player that is more aggressive. It is extremely rare at even average Elo to see a defensive player win. And, that’s fine.

The point of palisades is to provide time for a player to take a risk. For example, fast castle into knights/UU or to commit to forwarding their feudal military. The concern I’m raising is that making walls less viable on open maps is that everyone will be reduced to scouts or archers dancing in the middle.

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You defensive players cry this every time and yet what do we still see? Wall up and go castle with minimal feudal units

That’s kind of rude. Is it that your intent or is it accidental word choice?


Just played Teutons and used the Castle Age Teutonic Knight in a Castle drop, and the TKs completely wrecked without much problem a larger Knight army, wasn’t even close.

Tks won’t be buffed anymore I think, in that conditions only way to deal with them is having an army of ranged units. Even if your opponent is in Imperial you can still use them without caring of the elite upgrade because the castle age stats are basically for an Imperial age UU.


I meant claim instead of cry but the point remains. We have seen people claim defensive playstyles are gutted every time walling gets nerfed. And yet what do we still see from the best?

Go up with minimal military investment. Rarely do we ever see anything close to committed feudal attacks.

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And that 1 villager can still, according to sotl, buy you several minutes which you can use to build whatever you need to respond. And thsts against a house. Against a palisade its even longer.

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There is more to it.
You can make a 5 MAA rush. Then it needs 3 Vills to repair a house. Plus it costs 22.5 wood / minute. This is already a net positive trade for the maa rusher…
Meaning in the aftermath you either have to behind housewall (which would still be a good “trade” as you could do it with 1 vill, but maybe annoying to do, cause you would have to do it repeatedly) or avoid placing houses inside your wall entirely to not allow your opponent to have a net positive by just hitting on your houses while you repair them.

The thing is in feudal there are no sources to gain extra eco production, so there is no “compensation” for not working or occupied “working” wills (reason eg why tc drops can work against players who don’t know how much it costs to repair tcs). So if your military is idling only a small amount of the opponent vills it is often “worth” it,.
If 5 maa can somewhat “idle” and “occupy” 4 of the opponent vills, it’s a net positive trade at that stage of the game, cause there is just no possible eco investment to compensate for that loss of precious vill working time.