Urgent Feedback from China:Only 15% Satisfied with "Age of Knights" ——Many Players Feel The Knight Meta is Stifling Game Variety

the day before yesterday,Two posts suddenly went viral on our major Chinese forums and are on track to become the most-discussed topics since the release of the DLC.

One post sarcastically declared that this past year should truly be called the “Age of Knights,”

while the other was a serious discussion on "How to End the Age of Knights.

To quantify this sentiment, I launched a poll yesterday to gauge player satisfaction yesterday.As of writing this post, the poll has already garnered over 4000 views. The results are stark: only 15% of the voters are satisfied with the current version where Knights dominate.This data is a direct reflection of the widespread frustration discussed in those viral posts.

To provide further evidence from a respected community figure, yesterday I also consulted DarkCarrot, a prominent Chinese AoE4 streamer with 1.297 million followers. He firmly believes the current version is “deformed.”He pointed out that viewership has declined since last year’s major update, an update that saw changes like springalds no longer effectively countering siege weapons and the rise of an overwhelmingly Knight-centric meta.He elaborated that the game’s original strengths were its non-linear gameplay, distinct civilization identities, and the need to adapt decisions to random maps, where overall strategy > unit knowledge > micro-management. However, in this “Age of Knights,” all these advantages have vanished.He noted that in the previous version, the pro scouts made map randomness meaningless, as games would revolve around “the scout carried the deer back,” reducing map interaction. Now, in the current version, the core problem still remains a contest of whose Knights are stronger.He expressed deep concern for the game’s future, even stating that he believes without last year’s changes, the game’s daily active users could have reached 60,000. Conversely, he fears that if changes continue in this direction, the player base will only continue to shrink.

I understand our regional forums may not be on your radar, so I am bringing this critical feedback directly to you. The data and the expert opinion from our community both point to the same conclusion: the current “Age of Knights” meta is harming the game’s health and diversity.

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It would be great if you could post the links to the surveys or at least some screenshots, to better understand the original message.

In fact, I didn’t know there were Chinese forums about the game, even though I love translating various websites, with auto-translating tools, now communications of many languages ​​is possible.

The forum allows you to upload screenshots directly in the posts, so we’ll have a more official idea of ​​the Chinese opinion.

I suppose when they refer to the Age of Knights of last year (2024), they’re referring to the problems caused in Season 9 (patch 12.0.1974) where, although the Siege Wars ended, the Age of Knights began, due to several reasons:

  • 1.- Infantry nerfed
    Because the +20% HP bonus was removed from Elite Army Tactics, nobody bothered using Spearmen; they were very weak against knights and archers in Post-Imperial. Infantry civilizations stopped being used as much as before.

  • 2.- Cavalry boosted
    Biology was Boosted to +30%, making post-Imperial cavalry extremely lethal.

  • 3.- The End of the Anti-Siege Siege
    The change in the Springald’s role meant that to break a siege, Cavalry was now necessary. Light cavalry thus improved its use and function.

There were good things about the changes: it was the end of Siege Wars, and combos of 20 great bombards were invincible against practically everything. However, there was a frenzy of mass cavalry, especially in FFA mode.


Currently, in 3v3 or 4v4 team games, I don’t see as much mass cavalry anymore, except for certain post-Imperial civilizations. I mean, English and Lancaster have combos of 99 longbowmen or 99 rangers, Chinese have 99 Zhuge-nus, Delhi has Elephants, Abba Mass Riders, and Camel Archers.

That said, There is a problem with the Golden Horde, as its Age IV Stone Armies upgrade is poorly balanced, making Torguts so cheap and fast (3 Torguts x 6 seconds) that it actually renders the rest of the “cheap armies” provided by the upgrade useless, makes the second Age IV option useless, and makes the battles quite boring.

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The poll was created on our domestic forums (Tieba), and those platforms typically require you to use their official mobile app to view the full content and voting results. The web version often hides it. I can provide screenshots if you’re interested in seeing the details!

I can also show you some screenshot excerpts of DarkCarrot’s comments

Here are the direct links to the forum posts we discussed:declared this past year the “Age of Knights,”

debated “How to End the Age of Knights.”

the poll(might poll only show up if you view them through the app)

I hate the age of Knights, because the only playable civilizations in 4v4 are those with strong knights. But, as a French enjoyer, all I need to do is building stables and repeatedly pressing ‘W’ then opponent’s villagers and infantry either have to run in and out of outposts constantly or directly vanish. Easy pleasure.

One possible solution I would propose is to make Springalds deal bonus damage to all Melee units rather than Melee Infantry and increase their price a bit respectively.

You want to raid with Springalds??

That’s an interesting idea, and it has actually been discussed in the Chinese community. The general consensus was that such a change would effectively turn Springalds into a ‘superior version of the Ribauldequin’ (Early Ribauldequin’). Springalds are available in Age 3, players can start massing them much earlier. In the late game, a critical mass of Springalds with bonus damage against all melee units would be devastating to the entire melee roster

I didn’t find the reply function here yesterday.I’ve already sent some excerpts and the direct links to the Chinese forum threads earlier today.The poll has been updated. While support for age of knights has seen a minor 1% increase, the fundamental distribution of the votes hasn’t changed in any meaningful way.

Poll Title: What kind of future do you want for Age of Empires IV?
Option 1: Bring back the “Springald Wars” meta.
Option 2: I want to end the “Age of Knights”, but WITHOUT returning to the Springald Wars.
Option 3: I like the current “Age of Knights” meta.

I’d like to further supplement the discussion with another point from DarkCarrot.

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Cavalry just needs to have more movement speed as is the reality

Other bonuses should be rebalanced to make infantry a more reliable option to go for

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About the 99 Cavalry combo problem


After reading all the translated messages in the thread you posted, I understand what you’re referring to.

The issue is that there are currently too many cavalry civilizations compared to infantry and archer civilizations as the main army center.

But more than that, it’s also true that, at least in FFA (1vs1vs1vs…vs1) and certain team compositions (4v4), many player with Cavalry civs end up using 99 units of Heavy cavalry (Golden Knights) to focus on rushing.

Technically, the only way to stop them is to use strong late-game counters against cavalry, so it’s always ideal to have a civilization of this type on the team (3v3 or 4v4).

Currently, at least for infantry and anticavalry civs, the counters would be:

  • English: Ribauldequins (10 or 12) with many Spearmen or Longbowmen with Stakes
  • Ottomans: Ribauldequins (10 or 12) + Manny Janissaries (50, 60)
  • Delhi/ Tughlaq: War Elephants: 20 or 15, with many Prelates.
  • Abbasid/Ayyubid: Camel Riders or Dessert Riders 80

And against Elephants and Camels, the English and Ottomans can use the same counter. The only infantry civs with are in trouble are HRE y China.

And did you notice? I only mentioned 4 out of 22 civilizations. That’s because the rest are assumed to be able to use Elite Cavalry. Yes, there are few civilizations that don’t have Heavy Cavalry as their final elite unit.


When did the problem start?


I’d say it wasn’t at the beginning, since when it started in 2021, there was more balance in the types of civilizations:

  • French - Knights
  • English - Archers
  • HRE - Melee Infantry
  • Rus - Cavalry/Archers, Hybrid
  • Mongols - Cavalry Archers
  • Chinese - Zhuge-nus/Fire Lancers
  • Delhi - Elephants
  • Abbasid - Camels

Then came the Anniversary Edition (2022):

  • Ottoman: Siege (Big Bombard) + Anti-cavalry civilization (Jannisaries)
  • Mali: Supposedly “Infantry” civilization. Actually: Jack of All Trades (Cavalry/Melee Infantry/Rank Infantry)

I’d say the problem started in Sultan Ascend (2023):

  • Zhuxi: Supposedly Zhuge-nus. Actually: Cav civ (Imperial Guard)
  • JeanneDArc: Supposedly Hero civ. Actually: Another French (Cav civ)
  • Order of the Dragon: Supposedly Jack of all trades civ. Actually: Cav Civ (Gilded Knights)
  • Byzantines: Supposedly Mercenary Civ. Actually: Cav Civ (Cataphracts)
  • Japanese: Supposedly Infantry Civ. Actually: Cav Civ (Mounted Samurai Combo)
  • Ayuubid: Nah, this is fine… actually, that’s why this civ was the most beloved in the DLC, LOL!

And well, there we have to start:

Why 5 of the 6 civs of this DLC, their most powerful unit is a Cavalry? even for the civs that are infantry (JAP) or archers (Zhu Xi)?

The thing is, yes, there are few civilizations that can boast that their strength lies in Full-Infantry, I’d say 7.

1.- Order of the Dragon: Their spearmen are lethal, and even more so their Gilded Men-at-arms.
2.- English: Men-at-arms +2/+2 armor and the famous Wynguard Footmen.
3.- Lancaster: Ultra-powerful spearman with 4 lancaster lords and anti-armor ability.
4.- HRE: Men-at-arms capable of defeating Knights. High production and an economic boom.
5.- Japanese: Samurai with deflective armor and Nodachi +4 against infantry are extremely OP. Also, the onna-bugeisha spawn.
6.- Chinese: With Zhuge Nu rush, or Palace Guard Rush, with a lot of HP in Post-Imperial Age (IV) with Ming Bonus.
7.- Templar Knighst: If they go for the route of Teutonic Knights (IV) or Condottiero (IV), or even “Heavy Spearman” (III).

From them, Lancaster and English are also “Archers Civs”.

And that’s the point, 7 of 22 civs can go Full Melee infantry civs in Imperial. The rest, are hybrid or have bad infantry, but in many cases their elite Imperial Unit are Cavalry units.

Currently, with the last two DLCs, more civilizations with overpowered cavalry have been added to the game:

  • Macedonian Dynasty: Riddari +3/+3 armor +15% HP in Castle Age
  • Sengoku Daimyo: Mounted Samurai + Daimyo Aura
  • Golden Horde: Infinite Torghut Combo
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Future Solutions


I would say that the best thing for the future would be to add more civilizations with special infantry for the last age, or new anti-cavalry units so that strategies can be varied.

In Age of Empires 3, some people use full-heavy cavalry combos (like the English Husar or French Cuirassier combos), but these can be countered with full-dragoon combos.

AoE 4 lacks something similar for several civilizations, especially those that aren’t supposed to be full cavalry.

As I mentioned, the HRE and China lack mechanics to repel 99-knight combos in 4v4.

We have to consider that any solution must be based on real historical units, otherwise we’ll have another Zhu Xi with Buddhist monks, or Jeannes with pistols (and I suppose we don’t want that to happen again).

For example, I was thinking of adding pikemen, and I’m not talking about spearmen, who use short lances, but true pikemen with 5- to 6-meter lances.

At least several European civilizations used it when the “Pick-and-Shot” period began.


PIkemans


Historically, the cavalry charges were countered in Late Middle Age (Imperial Age) with the birth of “Pike-And-Shot” strategies.

We are talking about “True Pikemans”, not the Spearmans of the game, but TRUE Pikes of 6 meters in Macedonian Formations.

  • The units become popular when in 1477, Battle of Nancy, the Swiss Pikemans not only won aggainst the Burgundian army, but obliterated the entirey army and kill the last King of the Burgundian-Netherland realm, Charles the Bold. So, everyone wanted to contract Swiss Pikeman or Copy them.

  • In France, they contract Swiss Pikemans as a infantry corp for the Italian Wars.

  • In Italy, many city states contracts Swiss Pikemans as mercenaries.

  • In Germany, (HRE) the Landsknecht pikemans were the copy of Swiss Pikemans.

  • In England, they make the most late transition to pikeman, mainly because the population levy preferred to use Bills and Guisarmes (with the Lancaster bonuses), instead of pikes.

  • In Spain, they invented the Tercio Regiments, with PIkemans+Arquebusiers Combos.

RECENTLY, with the new games and new units there are 2 casos que podrían ser Hints de que los devs están considerando incluir piqueros en el futuro de AoE IV:

  • Macedonian Phalanxes - A unit from the Age of Empires II: Chronicles DLC. It acts as a true Pikeman, with an ultra-large blade. Its weakness is that it cannot attack at close range, like a pikeman.

  • Heavy Pikeman - A Crucible unit, which are not actually pikemen but halberdiers, at least in their UI image. However, they act as super spearmen with heavy armor and good damage. Analogous to the halberdiers from Age of Empires III (the ones that are actually useful).

  • Atgeirmaðr - A spearman that also has attack speed with more Atgeirmadr or varangian near them.

Pikeman (Light Infantry)

  • Professional soldier armed with a long-range pike. Gains an additional HP bonus of +1 for each nearby pikeman (2 tiles). Can use shield walls at long range to stop cavalry.
  • (+) Excellent against cavalry
  • (+) Exceptional range
  • (+) Additional damage against elephants
  • (-) Cannot attack at close range
  • (-) Slow
  • (-) Weak against heavy infantry
  • (-) Countered by archers
  • 160 HP, Attack: 13, Speed: 1.0 (slow), Rof: 1.75, Range: 1.5 - 0.25, Armor: 0/0
    Bonus: +30 cavalry, +8 elephant
    Cost: 60f 40w 20g

Available: English, HRE, Chinese, Lancaster.


Lanksnecht Pikeman (HRE)

  • Variant of Pikeman for HRE. Increase his HP +1 for each near landsknecht pikemans, landsknecht and gunpowder infantry (Hedgehog). At close combat changes to a “Kalzbalger”
  • 160 HP, Attack: 13 (Pike), 16 (Kalzbalger), Speed: 1.0 (slow), Rof: 1.75, Range: 1.5 - 0.25 (Pike), Armor: 0/0
    Bonus: +30 cavalry, +8 elephant
    Cost: 60f, 40w, 30g

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Probably the best way to (indirectly) nerf knights is to buff spearmen. Not sure how though. The biggest problem with knights is when you make them early on, you can almost instantly gain value by raiding, and there isn’t reliable way to stop raids before later parts of midgame. And then they are also good in a straight up fight even if you have spears. Spearmen should be able to punish raid attempts hard if you have sufficient amount of them, and be more effective at fending off knights in a big fight. Then making knights becomes more of a risk.

There are also tricks which make knights way more effective against spears than they should be:

  • starting charge to bait spearman brace, and then re-engaging while their brace is on cooldown. Maybe brace cooldown should be lowered a lot if it doesn’t “connect” with a knight.
  • walking in melee range without charging and then triggering charge by attacking far away unit, so spearman can’t brace at all. This is kind of abusive IMO.

There is also another issue of springald countering infantry blobs very hard, while you don’t have similar siege counter to cavalry frontline (no, I don’t think springalds should counter cav, though). Maybe non-issue if spears can deal enough damage fast enough before springalds disintegrate them.

So considering all of the above: changes that are IMO worth looking into:

  1. Straight up buff spearman damage against heavy cavalry
  2. Maybe make it easier for spears to reach cavalry, not sure how without it being weird - probably the most sensible is range upgrade increase in early castle age for non-knight civs maybe? Aka what Abbasids/Ayyubids have. Another potential idea is having snare effect when landing a hit vs cav, but this has a risk of spears making cavalry completely unplayable.
  3. Tweak the exploits which allow knights to bait spear brace, or trigger a charge regardless of spear brace, it’s huge DPS increase in a fight if a person knows how to abuse it.

Lastly I think this all needs to be done carefully (if at all), as bad as “knight meta” is, it does make the game pretty dynamic and exciting, compared to, I don’t know, 2TC/camping for 15 minutes.

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我已经在论坛里发帖呼吁过两次了 可惜没什么人回应 更遗憾的是官方从来不重视 最令我感到恶心的是中国兵种太弱了 设计畸形

Of the four civilizations in the new DLC, only the Tugrut Dynasty has a standard knights, while the others have unique knight. This makes me feel that developers seem unable to depict a designed civilization true military strength at a given time through innovative and diverse methods. Therefore, they seem to have resorted to modifying the attack, armor, and health of the most frequently appearing units in the game, to definecivilization’s period of dominance.

Besides, many unique knights don’t fit the civilization’s characteristic descriptions at all. For example, Japan’s knights (even the strongest knights in the game) are completely overshadowing its samurai, and current Japanese tactics are entirely centered around knights and in high level games no Japan would use samurai . Even fight with spearmen&crossbowmen combo, knights&achers act much better than samurai, and

Furthermore, due to knight’s excessively high base attack and health, the blacksmith’s melee attack and defense technologies are largely useless for players either using or defending against knights, even though knights appear far too frequently in the game. Compared to most of players research ranged attack and defense upon the moment age-up, melee attack and defense have been insignificant since the game’s release. The only version I can imagine where players prioritized melee attack and defense was when Mali’s scout warriors. I think this example illustrates to some extent that without the existence of a high-attack, high-defense Golden Horse, melee combat can still be useful.

The reason it become Age of Knights are Biology was Boosted to +30% and Infantry nerfed had broken counter relationship in spearman vs knight. The counter relationship in AOE4 is a damage vs HP thing, when spearman HP down and cavalry HP up but the damage still ,the formal counter relationship broken.OF COURSE add some corssbowman and hand cannon can still counter, but it doesn’t work in the late game with 200 pop. So the solution is make damage vs HP like before by buffing spearman damage, or build a new counter relationship in corssbowman and hand cannon vs cavalry.

依旧无人在意 上次步兵大削弱后 我放弃玩游戏了将近一年 而这次新DLC出之后 我现在已经放弃玩这个游戏了