Varangian Arsenal Techs +6/+6 Armor +30% HP [Discussion]

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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Varangian Arsenal

Recently, thanks to a video by Whamen, we got some great exclusives on the potential technologies of the Varangian Arsenal. And what more can we say, a picture is worth a thousand words:

Arsenal Dinastia Macedonia_ tecnologias
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Arsenal Return

For those who didn’t play the campaign, the Arsenal was a building in the “Alpha” version of the game, which was going to be a second type of forge with technologies for Ranged, Siege, and even the Castle (Boiling Oil) units.

Because it was too complex, and many of the Alpha’s technologies were removed or redesigned for being too broken, for the Open Beta, its technologies were moved to the forge, machine shop, and the Castle itself.

Now, after four years, it returns in the Varangian version of the Byzantine army, as a hybrid Blacksmithing + University.

But the reality is that it has little of a University:

  • The Macedonian Dynasty lacks “All” classic University/Madrasa technologies.

In their place, enhanced Blacksmithing technologies from the “Early Middle Ages” are available. Apparently available from the Feudal Age, there are possibly two per age, making a maximum of six Tiers per technology. At 6th, units can acquire +6/+6 Armor and +6 Base Attack.

WHAT? +6/+6 Armor of all units in Post-Imperial Age?

Varangian arsenal
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“Yes”, yes, yes.

The Varangians of the Macedonian Dynasty can have units with +6/+6 Armor and +30% HP.

The problem with this is that they “lack” basic University technologies, such as Elite Army Tactics (+15% Atk +15% HP to Melee Infantry) or Fire Projectiles, nor Chemistry.

In a way, this keeps things from being so “broken” in terms of HP and attack… until we get to the topic of armor, which also has 6 levels:

“Will they really have +6/+6 armor?”

In my opinion, this could be very broken, or it could be. I haven’t even been able to fully understand it.

What do you think?

Gunpowder weapons

Macedonian Dynasty Gunpowder
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Like an extra: While it’s theorized that the Civil War took place between 867 and 1056, the Civil War appears to have Handcannons and Bombards, according to the screenshots in the Whamen tree and the trailer.

The only excuse I can see is that the Byzantine Empire didn’t end in the Macedonian era, and the Imperial Age is a continuation around 1300-1400… or that they couldn’t think of another way to balance them without gunpowder.

  • What do you think? Are they already too broken and should they remove Gunpowder weapons?
  • Does it make sense that “Sharpen Arrowheads” increases the Handcannoner’s ranged attack?
  • Do you think the text could be subject to change?

Take care

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They have lots of siege and cav tech there i hope they come out balanced.Specially their axe throwing horses.I hope those axes dont deal too much damage to armored units other wise its broken.

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Way too early to make any determination on balance. The build used at gamescom was also dated. They made it very clear that the stats and unit descriptions were subject to change by release.

That being said, we are not positive on how much silver this will cost. Mongols have improved upgrades that cost stone, but has monumental resource cost and a capacity on stone generation. English MAA can get higher armor bonuses earlier, are trained faster, and can be fully sustained using farms in Imperial. I’m not fully convinced this is IMBA to begin with.

Do we have stats for their units, do we know how much base armor they have? Do we know their unit cost, training time, total health? We know they are meant to be an elite fighting force, and we know they are designed to become more powerful as time goes on. These upgrades are fully in line with that.

Stylistically, the techs are reminiscent of a AoE 2 blacksmith, with armor and weapons upgrades for cav/inf/ranged lines.

On gunpowder tech, this game has several instances of ahistorical gunpowder use for civs. Knights Templar not having gunpowder is simultaneously about history and flavor. Without knowing fully what their design is, I’m not sure what to say about them having gunpowder. Their faction is focused on being a mercenary army, their gunpowder units could just be comprised of imported weapons.

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Well as you said, it seems they don’t have other university techs like Elite Army Tactics, or Biology.

So probably not broken. It’s kind of like they get a different version of Abassid Boot Camp and French Biology (less health, but some extra armor). Other civs already have things like bannermen and inspired warriors that buff their units in similiar ways.

What I find more interesting is their archers. No incendiary and no silk bow strings? Is that unit even worth making in Imp? But it has extra armor and 30% more HP, so maybe it is.

Also, do they get handcannons? Those could be interesting with all that armor and health. I assume so from the images, but it was an old build at gamescom.

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From their civ page:

Bogmaðr
Light ranged Varangian infantry with an ability that steadies their bow in the midst of battle to penetrate armor weak points.

Could be fairly strong enmasse. Depends on whether this ability targets a single unit or gives them a temporary damage bonus.

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Yeah I want to see how the ability works. I guess that it makes them do bonus to heavy for a short time period.

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I’m half expecting all Varangian units to enter a bloodlust state when using their active abilities. If that’s anything like Varangian guard they may need that extra hp and armor. Higher casualty rates as a result of this tradeoff would also help explain the reinforcement mechanic.

Could be a glass cannon kind of civ.

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Hard to judge a civ without the full picture. Although, if 6/6 more armour and 30% more health is true then that is unparalleled. It does make me wonder however, is this perhaps in replacement of Blacksmith upgrades in addition to University ones? If so, this isn’t that crazy. In fact, if the only way for you to get tech upgrades is with stone then I can see that being a rather awful inflexible bottleneck.

Just to make a vague statement since we don’t know how these civilizations will play out; I hope whatever changes they do to unique units belonging to their original are not straight up better (looking at you ZXI ZGN).

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From the civ page:

Arsenal technologies combine both Blacksmith and University upgrades into one and are capable of exceeding the military power of other civilizations in each Age.

From what we saw at Gamescom, these upgrades are purchased using silver.

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